AnonymousNovember 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM
Diana, I was the Anonymous person who who wrote the following in the jungle. Chuck White wrote all his opinions on Kiko and the Way. I asked if he got Kiko'sl response, and I was mocked. Look at Rohr's response.
AnonymousNovember 13, 2014 at 7:02 PM
When you don't get Kiko's answers, then your opinions becomes a one-sided propaganda just like your book Target. Didn't you say that investigative reporting involves both sides?
Reply
Replies
TimNovember 14, 2014 at 9:46 AM
This deserves both an LOL and an SMH, 7:02. "Kiko's answers", ummm, where would we find those? In his catechetical directory? Oh, that's right, that's not available to mere mortals like us. Oh, you mean we have to sit through 30 years of catechesis to find out. Thank God Jesus required no such thing. Investigative reporting? We've had to work like hell to find out what the hell you people believe and teach because you hide it. Hidden teaching is gnosticism. You are not Catholic. Catholic means "on the whole", "for all". You idiots consider yourself to be the new "chosen people". Have at it.
AnonymousNovember 13, 2014 at 7:02 PM
When you don't get Kiko's answers, then your opinions becomes a one-sided propaganda just like your book Target. Didn't you say that investigative reporting involves both sides?
Reply
Replies
TimNovember 14, 2014 at 9:46 AM
This deserves both an LOL and an SMH, 7:02. "Kiko's answers", ummm, where would we find those? In his catechetical directory? Oh, that's right, that's not available to mere mortals like us. Oh, you mean we have to sit through 30 years of catechesis to find out. Thank God Jesus required no such thing. Investigative reporting? We've had to work like hell to find out what the hell you people believe and teach because you hide it. Hidden teaching is gnosticism. You are not Catholic. Catholic means "on the whole", "for all". You idiots consider yourself to be the new "chosen people". Have at it.
In the first place, notice the demeaning language that Tim Rohr uses? Name-calling. He called the anonymous poster and members of the NCW "idiots." While it is true that one may not be able to get a personal interview with Kiko Arguello, it is possible one may be able to get an interview with Father Pius, who is very knowledgeable about the Way, considering that he is the Head Catechist in Guam.
A thoughtful Catholic would always hear both sides of the story before he comes to a conclusion. It does not take any thinking to only hear one side especially if that one side is only your own interpretation.
According to Chuck White's conclusion, he stated:
Kiko is certainly correct in saying that the Passover celebrated at the time of Christ was celebrated in family groups, but he is patently wrong in asserting that “at the time of Jesus Christ the temple is no longer the center of the liturgy”. Millions of pilgrims made their way to Jerusalem each year to celebrate the Passover with a lamb sacrificed in the Temple.
Why, then, is Kiko so intent in removing the temple from the celebration of Passover in the time of Jesus? It is because he wishes to strip any hint of sacrifice from the ritual. Nowhere does Kiko mention that the Passover celebrated by Jesus was a sacrifice consummated by a ritual meal. In fact, he not only makes no mention of sacrifice when talking about Passover, he speaks pejoratively about sacrifice and the temple throughout the first volume of his Catechetical directory.
http://thoughtfulcatholic.com/?page_id=37224
From my previous post, we now know that Kiko never denied the sacrifice of Christ's death on the cross because he mentioned it in his interview with EWTN. Perhaps, if Mr. White had searched deeper or had asked an NCW catechist (such as Father Pius), he would have learned that Kiko's catechesis at that time was a focus on the family and that the new temple is the person's body.....the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps, Mr. White did not understand Kiko's catechesis the way the Pharisees did not understand Jesus when He told them "to destroy this temple and within three days, He will raise it up." At that time, Jesus was no longer speaking of the temple as a building, but the Jewish leaders misinterpreted what He said. At that time, Jesus was now teaching that the temple is our bodies rather than the temple building where sacrifices were being made.
John 2:21-22 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
According to Chuck White's conclusion, he stated:
Kiko is certainly correct in saying that the Passover celebrated at the time of Christ was celebrated in family groups, but he is patently wrong in asserting that “at the time of Jesus Christ the temple is no longer the center of the liturgy”. Millions of pilgrims made their way to Jerusalem each year to celebrate the Passover with a lamb sacrificed in the Temple.
Why, then, is Kiko so intent in removing the temple from the celebration of Passover in the time of Jesus? It is because he wishes to strip any hint of sacrifice from the ritual. Nowhere does Kiko mention that the Passover celebrated by Jesus was a sacrifice consummated by a ritual meal. In fact, he not only makes no mention of sacrifice when talking about Passover, he speaks pejoratively about sacrifice and the temple throughout the first volume of his Catechetical directory.
http://thoughtfulcatholic.com/?page_id=37224
From my previous post, we now know that Kiko never denied the sacrifice of Christ's death on the cross because he mentioned it in his interview with EWTN. Perhaps, if Mr. White had searched deeper or had asked an NCW catechist (such as Father Pius), he would have learned that Kiko's catechesis at that time was a focus on the family and that the new temple is the person's body.....the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps, Mr. White did not understand Kiko's catechesis the way the Pharisees did not understand Jesus when He told them "to destroy this temple and within three days, He will raise it up." At that time, Jesus was no longer speaking of the temple as a building, but the Jewish leaders misinterpreted what He said. At that time, Jesus was now teaching that the temple is our bodies rather than the temple building where sacrifices were being made.
John 2:21-22 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
Because there were no other interpretations given for anyone to compare other than Chuck White's own interpretations, then his criticisms of the Way is indeed a one-sided propaganda just as the anonymous poster pointed out.
Furthermore, Tim Rohr says that we claimed to be the "chosen people." Yet, on this blog, I and many NCW members having been saying that the chosen people are still the Jewish people.
Furthermore, Tim Rohr says that we claimed to be the "chosen people." Yet, on this blog, I and many NCW members having been saying that the chosen people are still the Jewish people.
Rorh's reply at 9:46 AM is rather unchristian and unbecoming of an accomplished apologist and catholic parent. Unless this is his M.O. This is why I find his blog most disturbing.
ReplyDeleteOne cannot deny the facts. The Holy See approved the teachings of Kiko. How is it that Tim Rohr (a plumber and a realtor) and Chuuk White (worker at the courts), find Kiko's teachings objectionable? They are not theologians. The Vatican said ok. They feel they are better than the Vatican. They have never been to a single catechesis or celebration of any community. And they want to pontificate us? Give us a break! What a farce!
ReplyDeleteIf the New Statues of the NCW was approved in 2012 by Rome with over a 1000 corrections, that means flaws in teachings, What do you do to those priests who have been formed in the NCW since the founding of NCW and indoctrinated with these erronous teachings ? Are they not also propagating those errors in doctrine that they were formed in??
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:45 pm,
DeleteI already know by your comment that you did not even bother to compare the approved statutes with the old one. You should done that before you made this ridiculous comment.
Edivaldo, (aka Diana), do something good in Guam, for Catholics of the island, the pope is saying some very challenging things for people,says in coming Archbishop of Chicago . The Holy Father is not saying, this is the law and you follow it and you get to heaven. He’s saying we have to do something about our world today that’s suffering; people are being excluded, neglected. We have a responsibility, and he’s calling people to task.
ReplyDeleteQuoting the Catechism is not going to help bring people back to the church, it is not going to help you understand, remarried and divorce issues, same gender blessing.
It will not help the plight of immigrants in the island who are here illegally, and the poor — including working people who live paycheck to paycheck, and “those who are caught in our world financial structures and are getting squeezed.”
Wake up NCW, the world is bigger than you, it is not about you, even if it is noble.
As the Holy Father has time and time again reiterated, the call for the church is to open discussion on sticky matters long considered settled, such as communion for the divorced and remarried, same-sex relationships, couples who live together without being married and even polygamists in Africa.
And the people said, Amen.
Dear Isaiah,
DeleteI already published your comment, which is the same as this one.
First of all, I am not Father Edivaldo. And we are doing something about it. The NCW (which the jungle wants to destroy) has been successful in saving marriages and helping the youths who are the future. Some RMS priests I know have also got couples who are co-habiting with each other to take the sacrament of marriage.
As for opening discussions on sticky matters such as same sex relationship and couples living together without marriage, I challenge you to bring these issues to the jungle. Why are you bringing it here?
You are a priest, the way you can extrapolate documents from the CCC and other encyclicals. Aminin, wag magsinungalin, English ok. Admit it, it is not good to lie...anyway you have the Penance coming up for Advent announcement.
DeleteOne receives a Sacrament, Diana. One does not take it.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 4:49 am,
DeleteThank you for correcting me. :)
I can order the Catechism of the Catholic Church on Amazon. Why can't I see Kikos volumes of Catechises? The one that tells word for word what to say to Adults.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 4:55 am,
DeleteThe IMPORTANT thing is that the Catechetical Directory written by Kiko was APPROVED by the Vatican in 2012.
Dear Anonymous at 4:55 AM, please, do not start me up on this. How many times should we tell everybody that the Catechetical Directory fro Teams of Catechists is an internal document of the Neocatechumenal Way? It is catechism for t hose who walk in the Way. At the same time it is available on the Internet for purchase. So why don't you buy a copy and read it?
DeleteWe can't publish the whole text because it is unnecessary. The catechism inside is the same as the official Catechism of the Catholic Church. It was approved, as Diana have said many times over and over again, because it is in complete harmony with the official teaching of the Church. So what do you want to know about it? Come to our catechism and we'll tell you.
One thing our critics forget is that a certain approach is stamped valid by the person who stands behind it. Our Catechetical Directory is valid, because of the prophetic insight of Kiko stands behind it. It has been acknowledged by Vatican as a proper charism for our time. This means you attach the Holy Spirit when you attack the charism of the Way. So what do you want? In order to get the benefits of the prophetic insight of the Catechetical Directory, it is not sufficient to read it. Don't fool yourself that by reading it you'll know everything. Wrong! Kiko's personality is coming through in direct contact only, through a community directed by a well-formed catechist team.
You have to understand that everything you are able to learn has its own time. Moses could not enter the Holy Land, but Joshua did. The people had not been able to grasp the Law of God yet, so Moses dispatched them apart as he stayed in the desert. Only the conquest of Joshua convinced the people of the power of God, then they became ready to learn the Law. The same way the insight guided by the Spirit of God cannot be grasped until you are immature in your faith and do not appreciate the power of God. Kiko's insights into God's holiness take time for you to grasp. You need to make the steps while you walk. Only then will everything fall into place, little-by-little, being committed for years and years to your community and filling your mindset and time management with a strong desire for holiness.
Sorry, there is no shortcut to heaven. That is a Protestant idea! There is no a one-minute salvation by embracing Jesus. You need continuous conversion for years and years to come to Christ. That is your path of salvation. Now, Kiko and the Way would lead you exactly on this path. All you need is trust, patience and perseverance in the Lord. You will know everything from the Catechetical Directory when the time is ripe for you. Deal?
What is equally important is what, Carmen Hernandez, co-founder of the movement, said: "What is important is NOT the Neocatechumenal Way, but the CHURCH."
ReplyDelete.............That is your path of salvation. Now, Kiko and the Way would lead you exactly on this path. All you need is trust, patience and perseverance in the Lord. You will know everything from the Catechetical Directory when the time is ripe for you. Deal?....."
ReplyDeleteKiko and the Way would lead you exactly on this path....Ernie, Please ensure Pope Francis gets the memo
Good one Catholics United! I'm sure Pope Francis will get a kick out of this -- that Kiko and the Way would lead you exactly on the path. LOL!!
DeleteDear Catholics United,
DeleteExactly! Just like the Apostles and the Saints lead all people to Christ. The mission of the Church is to lead all to Christ. That is what Kiko is also doing because he is part of the body of Christ.....the Church. We are not supposed to lead people to ourselves, but directly to Christ. Priests and Bishops are also supposed to do the same thing. A priest is supposed to lead his flock to Christ rather than to himself.
Ernie,
ReplyDeleteReasonable thinking believers ask the simple question, Why should we endevour to receive the "Insights" of Kiko and the NCW as truth, when the Son of God himself gave us all that is necessary for salvation. The Church is the instrument of salvation in the world today, and unless one is fully united with this Church and all that it teaches, I would be doubtful to follow someone's insight. I cannot understand why the NCW appears to be reverting back to the jewish way of worship, when Christ came to make all things new, and fulfill all that those shadows in the OT point to. We do not need a Prophet to speak or teach for God, He gave us the Church and the Bishops as the universal teachers and shepherds of the faith. I would also say that In listening to the testimony of many NCW members, they always attribute having their relationships and marriages, additctions, and vices being saved by the NCW. Is it not Christ who saves? We should all learn from the example of St. John the Baptist as he confesses "He must increase,I must decrease." Jn3:30
Dear Anonymous, your question is conceptually wrong. You assume the insights of Kiko and the teaching of our Lord are not the same. But you are wrong, they are not different! The insight from Kiko is exactly an insight INTO the teaching of the Son of God, actually of God itself. How would we know it? Because of the charism of the Way and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Whatever Kiko is doing and telling us, has in its innermost foundation the special presence and guidance of the Holy Spirit!
ReplyDeleteThat is why Kiko is the bearer of this charism that he transfers to the whole of the Way through himself. As I pointed out before, you cannot even roll a die or flip a coin without the finger of God not leading through its Holy Spirit. There is no empty chance, what you have is a grand design, the Plan of God at work that never fails. If God is even in the rolling die and flipping coin, then how much more you'll have the Holy Spirit in Kiko's teaching whose charism was recognized and approved by Rome!
We are not reverting back to the "Jewish way of worship". Why do you say that? There is only one true way to worship God and the Jews, our elder brothers in faith, have worshiped the only true God 1000 years before we even existed! Don't you get that...?! If you are humble in heart, you'll acknowledge with us how beautiful it is that the Jews allow us to join their devotion to their God, the only true God of the whole universe, who chose them and not us to be His People!
John the Baptist had to decrease because he allowed his followers to deviate from the true worship of God as prescribed in the Law of Moses. We still consider him a saint because he paved the way for Jesus. In contrast with John, Jesus had to increase because He led the flock back to God. He gave back the true meaning of John's baptism by being baptized by him, by the same baptism. This is crucial! So the heavens opened and God proclaimed “this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased”. Jesus is the beloved Son, who leads the people back to the true worship of God as was originally taught by Moses some 1000 years before.
Now, in our time, Kiko is returning to the way we had worshiped God before Trent. Just like Jesus turned back to the true worship of God. So what is so strange about it? Turning back hundreds of years in history is just an eye blink for God. But to recognize that you need to turn back, well, you need a great prophet for that! Don't you think so? This is why the future of the Church and the future of Catholic evangelizing potential lies with the Way. I hope I could convince you that we have a vibrant, inspiring faith life and you'll give it a try by visiting one of our catechisms that is surely coming soon somewhere close to you!
Dear Ernie, you say that "As I pointed out before, you cannot even roll a die or flip a coin without the finger of God not leading through its Holy Spirit."
DeleteWhy then does the Church not flip a coin, or roll a dice, or draw a lot in order to select a Pope? Or a Bishop? Or decide which priest is appointed to which parish? If the Holy Spirit is guiding these things, why bother with our intellect at all?
"There is only one true way to worship God and the Jews, our elder brothers in faith, have worshiped the only true God 1000 years before we even existed!"
Can you show me a single Jewish person that has worshipped God 1000 years before me? This is a fallacious argument. Does the fact that I am descended from Jewish stock mean that I am automatically in communion with Jesus? That I am worshipping the true God? Surely even you can concede that this is nonsense.
And that brings me onto another point. Do you think that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were ignorant of Jesus Christ? Rather, weren't they in fact aware of the promise of God to bring the Savior to the world? Do you honestly believe that these fathers of our faith were "Jews" in the sense that we use the term now? No! They were proto-Christians, faithfully waiting for Jesus to come. Jacobs ladder was nothing other than the genealogical tree that brought forth Mary, and from her, Our Lord and Savior. What good is it to extol the Jewish faith if that same faith has missed the whole point?!
"how beautiful it is that the Jews allow us to join their devotion to their God, the only true God of the whole universe, who chose them and not us to be His People!"
This is truly disturbing, and from a priest no less! The Jews do not "allow us to join their devotion to their God"! God has sent his messengers to the crossroads with invitations to us all to join in the true worship because those who were invited (the Jews) rejected the invitation. That invitation is still open to them by the may, but they will gain no benefit from continually rejecting it.
"John the Baptist had to decrease because he allowed his followers to deviate from the true worship of God as prescribed in the Law of Moses."
What does this mean? Can you prove this statement, or at least provide some rationale for it. It seems anachronistic to the understanding of the role of John the Baptist that the Church would have us accept.
"Now, in our time, Kiko is returning to the way we had worshiped God before Trent"
And here's the rub - that you, and your fellow NCWs believe that the Church at Trent had "deviated from the true worship of God as prescribed in the Law of Moses". So much for the Holy Spirit then? So much for Jesus guarantees to Peter and the nascent Church. The Holy Spirit was evidently asleep, or perhaps in the synagogue at the time of Trent? Outrageous! It is no wonder that you face opposition, and so you should if you honestly propose these ideas.
So the future of the Church is Kiko and his work? Because he will turn back hundreds of years in history! This is outright heresy and is grounds for you to be stripped of you right to preach and offer the sacraments on behalf of the faithful.
You ask me “do you honestly believe that these fathers of our faith were "Jews" in the sense that we use the term now?”. Well, I don’t know in what sense you use the word, but Jew for me means true worshiper of God. So you may deny that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were Jews at your own peril.
DeleteYou also ask “why then does the Church not flip a coin, or roll a dice, or draw a lot in order to select a Pope?” You know what? The outcome would not be different! I am serious. Assuming of course that the conclave follows the will of God. Why? Exactly because the finger of God and the Holy Spirit are at work even in the roll of a die or the flipping of a coin.
Jbap was a prophet inaugurating Jesus. Jesus himself was a prophet who came to correct his error. Why? JBap wore camel hair and ate locust. But God not give locust to eat. When Jesus took over the ministry from JBap, he was called a glutton because he ate normal food. But this what God gave us to eat, normal food and not locust. You may say it is not significant, but it is! Jesus led us back to the true worship of God. True worship accepts all the good things coming from God showing His favor. We were not called to be poor and needy, but to be rich and powerful so that we may give back more to God!
I did not say this what way: “Church at Trent had "deviated from the true worship of God as prescribed in the Law of Moses". So much for the Holy Spirit then?” I said that about JBap and not Trent. But answering your question, the Holy Spirit apparently was not asleep. However, the Council at Trent excluded the true influence of the Holy Spirit when enacted its failed policies that haunts our Catholic Church for centuries and centuries ever since then. Unfortunately, the Holy Spirit can be shunned by deliberate action. The Holy Spirit can do His work on us only if we are completely open to Him and His influence and don’t lie to the Spirit!
"Ernie", this is so intensely wrong I hardly know where to begin.
Delete"Jew for me means true worshiper of God"
I can only guess that your ambition is become a Jew then? .
Where did I "deny that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were Jews"? I merely suggested that what "Jewish" means now is not the same as it meant two thousand plus years ago. When Abraham et al were on earth there was no Church as such - the "people of God" were the Jewish people.
But now there is the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. If Abraham and the rest were here today, would they remain Jews, or would they join the Catholic Church?
Obviously we need to be careful about the term "Jew" because it can mean a member of a faith, or it can mean a member of a "race" or "strain" of people. You don't seem to make any distinction about this. On face value, a Jewish person by inheritance could worship Satan himself and still be regarded as one that "worships the true God"?!
And then you say that the outcome of the conclave would be no different were we to simply draw lots. But you then contradict yourself by saying that "the Holy Spirit can be shunned by deliberate action". In that case, it would be far better to draw lots or roll a dice because then the Holy Spirit can't be shunned by deliberate action. Once again, the Church is wrong (in this case to hold a conclave) and Kiko is right (because he draws lots).
Your proof that John the Baptist was in error (your word) is that he ate locusts, and then you say "True worship accepts all the good things coming from God showing His favour". So, how can the Jews be "those that worship the true God" if they don't eat pork?
We are called to be "rich and powerful". Just...think...about ...that ....statement.
"the Council at Trent excluded the true influence of the Holy Spirit when enacted its failed policies that haunts our Catholic Church for centuries and centuries ever since then"
So there you have it. The Council of Trent was working against the Holy Spirit and therefore is not a reliable and true council. This is just blatant heresy.
Ernie,
ReplyDeleteMy question to you is; when did the Holy Spirit decend upon Kiko to make him the infallible proclaimer of the Truth? Why is so much emphasis placed on him leading us back to God. Do you not understand that the Son of God who came is the untimate and absolute source of truth? That means that no human being can come after him that will possess a greater truth. We do not need a prophet. Jesus himself the "King" came to proclaim to us that his "Kingdom" is in our midst. That means that The Church is that Kingdom, the bride of Christ and he himself has willed it to have an authority through an anointing of the Holy Spirit in the persons of the Popes and Bishops that he him self calls through the Church. These are the Teachers of the Truth that God has given us. Who ordained or anointed Kiko a Prophet ? You seem to be proclaiming him as Prophet and source of the truth that will lead us to God? Where do you get this authority to make this proclaimation? Listen to what the Church Teaches CCC65 "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son. Christ the son of God made man is the Father's one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one."
Heb 1:1-2 "In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say...becaus what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by nnot fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty."
Now unless you are saying the the work of Christ is not sufficient, and requiring that the Prophet Kiko be sent to complete God's Divine plan, you cannot expect us to accept this erronous teaching, especially in light of all the divine revelation that God has given us through Scripture and Tradition. This is not my opinion, This is what the Church teaches, And I know that it is pillar and foundation of the truth, because Christ says so.
God Bless
Rol M.
Dear Rol M. "He has no more to say... because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All who is His Son."
DeleteThis is very easy to answer. "All at once" is the revelation of Jesus, who restored the true worship of God as mandated by Moses. Remember that not a single iota can be omitted from the Law! Now this revelation is full and complete, but we are human beings who has limited capacities. So we need time to grasp and absorb the truth.
This is exactly what is happening when we walk with Kiko. He is led by the Holy Spirit through his charism approved by the Pope. That is why we believe him and not you or the Jungle people. Because whenever there is no charism, there is no opportunity for Holy Spirit to use it to reveal the meaning of the Word. Therefore we celebrate Kiko while he is among us. It is very special time and we are his contemporaries. So we need to celebrate all these things together in the Eucharist.
Dear Rol M,
DeleteChrist is priest, prophet, and king, and to share and participate in that same office through the anointing of our baptism means that we are also called to BE priests, prophets and kings. It does not mean that we replace Christ or take His title. It simply means that we become one with Christ because this is what Christ desires.....to be one with Him. According to the weblink below:
"All Christians are tasked with being contemporary prophets by virtue of their baptisms, according to Father George Heyman, director of continuing education and associate professor of Biblical studies at St. Bernard’s School of Theology and Ministry. He explained that one becomes a prophet -- as well as priest and king -- through the anointing during baptism. That anointing is modeled after Jesus' anointing and is so important that he encourages his students to look up and celebrate the dates of their baptisms.
"That was the day you were made like a little Christ," he remarked. "
http://www.catholiccourier.com/faith-family/features/life-as-a-prophet-king-priest/
Hebrews 1:1-2 says that there are no more revelations, but it never said there were no more prophets. God spoke through the prophets. After Christ ascended into Heaven, He spoke through His Church. And who is HIs Church. His Church includes not only the Pope and Bishops, but also the laity who are baptized. This is what St. Paul meant when he said:
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
The Church teaches to imitate our life after the holy saints. We not only listen to the Pope and Bishops, but also to the writings of the holy saints because God also spoke through them.
Ernie, Diana,
ReplyDeleteCont From Top...
If we use the example of 2Ptr1:3-4, St. Peter tells us that our lord by his divine power has bestowed upon us precious and great promises that through them we may share in his divine nature. We surely do not believe that this passage makes us divine in any way. For even in Heaven we will continue to be the creatures that our Lord created us to be.
Why is it also that the Church the Bride of Christ since the establishment of the seat of Peter in Rome has not one prophet been proclaimed in the history of the Church. This precedence can only mean that the Church understood what Scripture teaches when it cites that we truly participate in the office of Christ in his office of Prophet, Priest and King. It also recognized the offices of Presbyters and Episcopate set in place by Christ as the Teacher and Giver of Christ’s Sacraments until he comes again.
Strangely, there is a precedence however in non Christian, non Trinitarian churches who do not believe in the divinity of Christ such as the Iglesia de Christo, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses where the proclaimination of Prophets are made to leaders of their churches.
You see, we believe that Christ is the ultimate of all Prophets since he does not receive the truth from somewhere or someone, He himself is the truth. Even the greatest of the OT and NT prophets are only a shadow, and receive the truth to proclaim to the people from God. Jesus gave us the Priest and Bishops as authority in the Church. He did not give us a prophet, and if one were to exist without an ordination or anointing, he is either self proclaimed or proclaimed by man.
Everything flows from Christ, It is he who called and ordained and anointed the OT Prophets, Priests and Kings, In the Church he also calls and ordains the NT Priest and Bishops. My question is Who anointed or ordained Kiko as a Prophet in the Church? If Ernie says the approval of the statues gives him the Charism, and title of Prophet then we can also surmise that all religious groups that have received papal approvals must have Prophets also. However no other group ascribes this title upon their founder, or member only the NCW.
God Bless
Rol M.
Dear Rol M.,
DeleteTo share in Christ's divinity and partake of his divine nature means that we are to become LIKE Him. In the end, we will have glorified bodies LIKE Christ. We will have eternal life LIKE Christ. We become holy LIKE Christ. Through out baptism, we become a new creature or a new creation in Christ. Below is a sermon from St. Augustine. His sermon can also be found in the Liturgy of the Hours. According to St. Augustine:
"Beloved, our Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal creator of all things, today became our Savior by being born of a mother. Of his own will he was born for us today, in time, so that he could lead us to his Father’s eternity. God became man so that man might become God. The Lord of the angels became man today so that man could eat the bread of angels,,,,,,,,,."
http://catholicradiodramas.com/saints/a-augustine/augustine/god-became-man/
Of course, this is not to be interpreted to mean that we become God the Father by unsurping Him from His throne. As I said in one of my comments, God gave us His titles to show his intimate love for His Church. In John 10:34, Jesus said "Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’?"
When Christ said this, He was referring to Psalm 82:6, in which God addressed the powerful judges of Israel who, because of their high office, were entitled to be called "gods." The next verse of the psalm keeps this in perspective: "nevertheless, you shall die like men, and fall like any prince" (Ps. 82:7). So, God gave the title "gods" to the judges of Israel, but He also leaves them a reminder that they are mortal and can die.
In the same way, God shared His titles with His Church to show his intimate love for His Church. And who is His Church? It is all the baptized. Christ is called "Good Shepherd." The Bishops are also called "Shepherds." God is called "Holy Father." The Pope is referred to as "holy father." Christ is the "rock." Simon Peter was given the name "Cehpas" which means "Rock" in Aramic. Christ is the Son of God. Through our baptism, we become sons (and daughters) of God created in His image and likeness. Christ is priest, prophet, and king. We were all anointed priest, prophet, and king at our baptism. Kiko was anointed "priest, prophet, and king" at his baptism just like all of us.
Ernie, Diana,
ReplyDeleteI dont know what happened with the begining of my post, Must have not copied over. Anyway, this is the first part of my post... sorry it is not in order
The apostle to the Gentiles tells us in scripture that God has built his Church upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone, and through Jesus the whole structure of this Church is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord. It is in Jesus also that this body of Christ is being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.” (Eph2:20-22)
This passage from St. Paul assures us that God has indeed built the foundation for his instrument of salvation in the world, namely the Church, using mere human being chosen from among men by God to be his Prophets and Apostles for the purpose of preparing the inauguration of the household of God in the fullness of time. We believe that this foundation is already in place and is being held together by Christ and continues to be built up into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
This foundation is not lacking in anything since we have a capstone that is of divine origins, It is indefectible because Christ himself is the designer, builder, and mortar that holds it together. It is indestructible because we have Christ’s guarantee that nothing can destroy it for all time. (Matt 16:18), you can stake you life on it because it is the pillar and foundation of all truth.(1Tim 3:15)
It is clear then from scripture that our Lord, in making all things new, gives us all things necessary for our salvation through the Church, By Christ’s plan the Episcopate as direct successors of the Apostles and who possess the fullness of the priesthood are the shepherds and teachers of the faith, & through apostolic succession, they have been given charge by Christ to tend and feed his lambs & sheep.(Jn21:15-18), If the Lord then has given us all that we need through the Church, what need is there for Prophets? All we need is to look to the source of Christ’s truth and Supernatural Graces present in his body the Church. Christ after all is the fulfillment of the old testament Priest, Prophets and Kings. (CCC436)
The reference of 1Corinth 12:28,29 & Eph 4:10-12 that is used to justify one’s becoming a Priest, Prophet and King, has to be clearly understood from the perspective that it is Jesus who is anointed through the Holy Spirit (Christos) by the Father to be Priest, Prophet and King (CCC783), we as members of the body of Christ participate or are sharers in these offices in so much as we are united with Christ in his plan for our salvation. Christ is the giver of the graces for us to share or participate in these offices, our receiving it is not absolute as we can impede or outright reject these graces by our free choice. Even the office of Priest has to be understood as being distinct in different levels between the priesthood of all believers by our anointing into membership to the family of God through our Baptism, and the ministerial priesthood specially instituted by Christ through the Sacrament of Holy Orders for the administration of Sacraments in the Church, these participation in Christ’s priesthood are distinct from the High Priesthood of Christ which he alone possesses. Participation in or sharing in these offices does not make us Prophets, and Priest as Christ is Prophet and Priest, but benefactors of God’s outpouring of Graces. A student is never greater than his teacher says Jesus Lk 6:40, therefore we can not aspire to that which Christ alone possesses, that would be acting presumptuously, and make us guilty of usurping this title which our Lord only possesses as the absolute and definitive Priest, Prophet and King.
Dear Rol M.
DeleteI do not know what happened to the beginning of your post. I only received the second part. For some reason, the first part did not come through. At any rate, I responded to the second part. Although we are anointed priest, prophet, and king...this never meant that we are greater than Christ. It simply showed Christ's love for us. He came down as man to become one of us and He instituted the Eucharist so we can be divine (holy) like him. He came down and SHARED in our humanity. Human blood (our blood) flowed in Christ's veins when He shared and participated in our humanity. At the Eucharist, when we eat His Body and drink His blood, Christ's blood flowed in our veins.
Diana,
ReplyDeleteI hope that from your response above that you do not believe we become like God who possess divinity? This will never happen. This passage of “Theosis” from the Catechism means exactly a participation in or a sharing in God’s divine nature, and in this sharing we become incorporated into Christ through the sacraments which imparts supernatural grace upon us as a free gift of God. This sanctifying grace then makes us capable of living in the presence of God. It is not received apart from God, but rather a sharing in his divine life. To share in his office of prophet does not make you a Prophet! Just as to share in his divine nature does not make you Divine. Incidently “Holy” does not equal “Divine” as you cited above, but even Holiness is a by product of participating in God’s Divine life.
It seems that you are referring to our participation in Christ’s three fold office that Kiko gets his title of Prophet, that would not be an issue for any reasonable catholic believer who understands this teaching of the Church. This is not what is derived from Ernie’s Blog of however, where he cites “This is why we need a new Prophet after 2000 years of silence to fill in the gap. This prophet for us, for people of modern Catholic faith is no body else but Kiko.” He seems to proclaim Kiko as a Prophet to the likes of Abraham, Moses, Ezekiel, Isaiah & even Jesus. If this is not scandalous teaching, I do not know what is.
The problem with Ernie’s assertions is God himself called and anointed all these prophets to proclaim “Thus Says the Lord”, You or Ernie still have not given us any evidence where Kiko got his ordination or anointing?
To summarize: 1. We have all we need in Christ we become sharers in the three fold offices, which he himself possess in fullness. Without anointing or Ordination from the Church we are self-proclaimed. 2. We do not need a prophet since Christ himself has come to fulfill this office in his person, and in his office he lacks nothing. 3. Jesus Himself did not give us a prophet in the church, rather Bishops and Priests as authority. 4. The Church to this day has never proclaimed this title upon anyone since the seat of Peter was established in Rome. 5. We do not know who ordained or anointed Kiko a Prophet. 5. It appears that Man is the source of this Title upon the NCW leader.
God Bless
Rol M.
Dear Rol M.,
DeletePerhaps, you need to read my comment again. And holy does refer to divine. According to dictionary.com: "Holy refers to the divine, that which has its sanctity directly from God or is connected with Him". God calls us to be holy because He is holy (See 1 Peter 1:16). We cannot be holy on our own. It is only through and with God that we can be holy.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/holy?s=t
Furthermore, the Holy Bible shows that there were New Testament prophets just as there were Old Testament prophets.
Acts 11:28-29 During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.)
Acts 15:32 Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers.
Ephesians 2:19-20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
As you can see, the Holy Bible says that the foundation of Christ's Church was built on the foundation of the Apostles AND the prophets with Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone. It is not just the Apostles. As St. Paul said, some will be called prophets, and some will be called teachers, etc.
Diana,
ReplyDeleteI am aware that there are Prophets mentioned in the NT, If you read my blog correctly, I specified from the time that the seat of Peter was established in Rome to today, there have been no prophets ordained or anointed in the Catholic Church.
I disagree with your assertion simply since God is Holy and Divine, However the saints and angels are Holy but not Divine. Distinctions is important so as not to impart upon us something that we are not.
You have missed the point in all this discussion, the NT prophets like the OT prophets were all chosen by God for the building up of the Church, most especially during the period of the church’s infancy in the periods of the NT. The fact that divine revelation in the form of sacred scripture mentions them is reason to believe that they were in fact valid.
The issue here however has never been the contention that the OT or NT prophets are valid or did/did not exist, the question is the validity of KIKO’s ordination or anointing to be a Prophet in the Catholic Church?
These concerns hinge on our understanding that in light of God having provided us an ark of salvation in the Catholic Church, anyone who claims to be a Prophet but not ordained or anointed by the Church, From where does he come, and by what authority? What makes him different from You or Ernie, or someone who claims to be speaking for God?
What guarantee do we have that what he teaches is the truth, If our eternal life depends on receiving the truth, we can rest assured that We can receive it in the Church that Christ established.
God Bless.
Rol M.
Dear Rol M.
DeleteThis is what a non- Neo priest of theology stated below:
"All Christians are tasked with being contemporary prophets by virtue of their baptisms, according to Father George Heyman, director of continuing education and associate professor of Biblical studies at St. Bernard’s School of Theology and Ministry. He explained that one becomes a prophet -- as well as priest and king -- through the anointing during baptism. That anointing is modeled after Jesus' anointing and is so important that he encourages his students to look up and celebrate the dates of their baptisms.
http://www.catholiccourier.com/faith-family/features/life-as-a-prophet-king-priest/
According to this priest (Father George Heyman), we become contemporary prophets through our baptism. I will take the word of this priest over yours since you are not a priest. I will also go by what the Catechism says. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that the Church is both human and divine (CCC 771).
Kiko is a prophet through his baptism. We are all prophets through our baptism. Fr. Stanislaw Zarzycki, a professor at the Institute of Theology Spirituality at the Catholic University of Lublin also stated about Kiko Arguello: This is the Prophet of our time." See the weblink below:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://www.fronda.pl/a/kiko-to-prorok-naszych-czasow,29125.html&prev=search
Can you show me why I should follow you and not these Catholic priests who are trained in theology? What makes you more qualified in knowing theology more than these priests?
Diana,
ReplyDeleteDoes Fr.George Heyman or Fr. Stanislaw Zarzycki call themselves a "Prophet" who is the only one who can lead us to God ? or is Fr. George or Fr. Stanislaw the Church ? The burden of proving that Kiko is a Prophet who is the only one who can lead us to God is an outrageous claim that You and Ernie make.
I do not have to prove anything, What I have been seeking from you is to give us proof of this claim that you are making.
Tht fact we all participate in the three fold office of priest prophet and king, is a teaching i am in full agreement to, But I nor do you go around making a statement that because we participate in these offices, we are therefore Prophets and are the only ones that can lead people to God? Why then do you ascribe this type of statement upon another Human being? Kiko? It is really only Jesus Christ who Saves, and He accomplishes that task through his bride the Church today.
btw, I am not a theologian nor do I claim to be one, I am just a sinner in need of God's saving grace in Jesus's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
God Bless,
Rol M
Dear Rol M,
DeleteI have given you evidence. I cited biblical texts showing that Prophets of the New Testament exists even after Christ ascended into Heaven. I have cited the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which says that we are anointed priest, prophet, and king. I have the testimony and homily of three priests who stated that we are contemporary prophets. One priest in Michigan even said that Mother Teresa and Doris Day are also prophets. You ignored all of them.
The prophet is not ONLY the teaching magisterium. All baptized Catholics are prophets. A prophet is a person who speaks for God. God speaks through His Church, the teaching Magisterium, the Pope and Bishops, the priests, and even through the laity who are all part of the Catholic Church.
According to the Catholic weblink below:
"Prophets in the bible were God’s voice in the world, but modern day prophets are also God’s voice in the world. We are called to proclaim Christ in our world too. When Christ ascended into heaven he commanded his disciples to “proclaim the gospel to the ends of the earth”. There is a formal way of doing this, through the priesthood and within the structure of the Catholic church, but we are all also called to proclaim Christ to the world as well. We belong to a royal priesthood, even if lay people are not ordained."
http://www.acatholic.org/modern-day-prophets-are-gods-voice-in-the-world/