Can. 273 Clerics are bound by a special obligation to show reverence and obedience to the Supreme Pontiff and their own ordinary.
Can. 275 §1. Since clerics all work for the same purpose, namely, the building up of the Body of Christ, they are to be united among themselves by a bond of brotherhood and prayer and are to strive for cooperation among themselves according to the prescripts of particular law.
§2. Clerics are to acknowledge and promote the mission which the laity, each for his or her part, exercise in the Church and in the world.
Kiko what a smart man. He get people to leave their local parish and become members of the NCW. They stop donating to their local parish. They give large donation to the NCW but not to their local parish. Kiko gives big bucks to bishops and pastors to get his group accepted in parishes. If 10% become NCW then the parish loses 10% of the normal Sunday collection.
It has always been about the money!!! Is anyone here really surprise? They always start their complaint with the money! Why? Because that is really the root of it all. Well, I have news for you Father William, many people in my community still attend Sunday Mass. Why? Because the Way has brought them closer to Jesus Christ. Some of my community members are alter servers, Eucharistic Ministers, and Lectors in the Sunday Mass. Some of them even join the choir of the Sunday Mass. Some community members are also CCD instructors who end up attending the Sunday Mass as well. We not only contribute to the Sunday collection, but also SERVE in the Sunday Mass rather than sit on the pews.
The rest of your argument is not even worth addressing. Pope Francis has already confirmed our call, support our mission, and blessed us. Therefore, the NCW is part of the Catholic Church, whether you like it or not. Do you think you know better than Pope Francis? My only advise to you, Father William, is to repent, confess your sins, and return to the Catholic Church.
How sad. The church is supposed to be in the business of saving souls, not counting bodies as monetary assets.
ReplyDeleteIt’s funny how you say “Do you think you know better than Pope Francis?” But then question the pope’s decision to sentence brother tony. That the punishment doesn’t fit the crime. Did I miss something here?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 5:05 pm,
DeleteOn the contrary, the Pope is infallible only in matters pertaining to faith and morals. Everything outside of faith and morals, the pope can make a mistake. A verdict in a tribunal has nothing to do with faith and morals.
One would think that the pope relies on his faith to make the best decision regarding facts from the tribunal investigation. I’m sure the pope prayed and asked our Lord for guidance prior to assigning punishment. But who are we to assume or question the popes decision, right?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:02 pm,
DeleteYou are incorrect. The Vatican tribunal is like any justice system on earth. It does not rely on faith. It relies on evidence and witness testimonies. And as I have stated before, ALL justice systems on earth are imperfect and flawed. Only God’s justice is perfect and without flaw.
Ummm I said the pope. Not the tribunal. Please read again.
DeleteSo all justice systems are imperfect and flawed, then I guess we shouldn’t be allowed to hold anyone accountable for any wrongs they’ve done. Even with facts, crooks are still innocent because they proclaim their innocence.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:11 pm,
DeletePlease read what I said again. I said that the Pope is infallible only in areas pertaining to faith and morals. Anything outside of that, the pope can make a mistake. As an example, if the pope makes a political verdict regarding the foreign policy between the U.S. and North Korea, whatever it is can be an error or mistake in judgment because it would be based on the pope’s personal opinion or perspective. In the same way, the pope’s verdict on guilty or not guilty can also be an error because it is based on the findings of the tribunal. It is not based on the realm of faith and morals.
Dear Anonymous at 7:14 pm
You are living in a fantasy world if you actually believe that our justice have never made any mistakes. Just read the story about how a sex offender was released on parole in Guam. And that same sex offender who was released is now back in jail for kidnapping and raping an 8 year old girl. Also, I will add that the sex offender did not say he was innocent. He admitted his guilt and even said that he is sexually addicted to children.
Dear Diana, Father William has a point here. NCW outsources parishioners from the church to private business. When we ask for instance about the trash bag collections in NCW, you always say it is none of our business. NCW members spend their money as they wish. If they wish to place large sums of money into trash bags for NCW-collection, it is their choice, their decision and nobody has anything to do with that. You see, this is your own argument… Now, that is exactly what private business is! Their own choice, their own decision. That hurts the church because it cuts into the budget of the parish.
ReplyDeleteThe resources of a parish include parishioners. They give their treasure, talent and time to the service of their church. When NCW outsources parishioners into private business, their treasure, talent and time are lost for the church. It is applaudable that some NCW members take on leadership roles in their parishes. But the impression is that they are sent by their corporation to keep their hand on the tab. People perceive them as embedding themselves into the parish life incognito, keeping their affiliation secret.
You say Father William is not in communion. But can you say that without juridical authority? This kind of judgments are only made with proper authorization in the Catholic Church. Otherwise it is nothing but a hearsay, a private opinion. What is truly important is never about the juridical, rather about the perceptional. The operations of the NCW are legally allowed. But what is the perception of the NCW in the faithful?
Father William claims division. Well, it is bad enough that the sexual abuse scandals greatly eroded the trust of people in the Catholic Church. On Guam, the percentage of Catholic population went down from 85% to below 80% in just 5 years. If the trend continues, there will be below 50% Catholics on our island by 2050. Protestant denominations and New Age religions like Bahai, etc. dissipate parishioners from the pews. Do you want this to happen in your parish, Diana? Of course, you don't! That’s why we need firm Catholic unity to prevent this disaster! Do you get it? Division is not helpful! Division and fragmentation will destroy and execute Catholic life as we know it.
Diana, Father William's concerns are valid and ring true for many people on Guam who are not walking in the NCW.
Dear Grow up in faith,
DeleteHow much I contribute to the Way is none of your business just as how much I contribute to the parish is also none of your business. What I do with my money is none of your business. The resources of the parish includes the NCW. WHY? Because we are also the parishioners who serve as the parish altar servers, parish Eucharistic ministers, parish Lectors, and parish choir members during the regular parish Sunday Mass. The NCW are also the parishioners who cleaned and maintain the parish church grounds. The NCW are also the parishioners who volunteered their service as parish council members, parish office workers, and parish CCD instructors.
When a clergy member opposes what the pope clearly and definitely supports, that clergy member has already put himself outside the Catholic Church. That is the truth. In the same way, a Catholic who advocates for abortion has also put himself/herself outside the Catholic Church.
Dear Diana, this is exactly what I talk about: "How much I contribute to the Way is none of your business just as how much I contribute to the parish is also none of your business. What I do with my money is none of your business." What you say is what is called private business. Absolute freedom of finances through NCW economy. What you do is private.
DeleteI actually do have business with the Sunday collection the parish receives as published regularly. When I read it, I get accounting information to check on. So it is not true that I have no business with that.
THe same with taxes. It is the Catholic Church that has the non-profit status for the purposes of tax and not private businesses. Private businesses have to pay taxes according to their resources and income. Does the NCW pay taxes as a corporation of private businesses or shields itself from paying taxes by the umbrella of protection of the Mother Church?
Dear Grow up in faith,
DeleteWe have accountability in the NCW. The members of the NCW know where our contributions is going.
Diana, one cannot but observe that your financial accountability in the NCW does not hold toward each other only but also toward the parish. Transparency is granted in the parish bulletin where summaries are regularly published and can be viewed by anyone in the parish. This is the place for all church related resources to be accounted for!
DeleteThe lack of transparency of NCW businesses is not only a stinging pain in the body of the church, it also opens the doors for unwanted consequences of financial nature like overspending, money laundering, etc. Donations, especially from the Middle East, can be festered by terrorism. It is not a joke, Diana, very serious matter. Nobody says it happens in the NCW, but federal regulations are sensitive in this kind of matters.
We have heard nothing about the reason for the non-profit, tax-exempt status of NCW businesses. The only reason for this benefit would be a fiscal unity with the Mother Church, that you reject. Your identification with the church is lacking in other respects, as well. It is well documented that you don't acknowledge the distinction between venial and mortal sin which is a most fundamental teaching of the church. You call everybody a 'sinner' without distinction, thus equating Mother Teresa, for one, with a serial abuser. This leads to moral relativism, turning your group against the spiritual foundations of Catholic faith. Our faith teaches that we are sinful by birth, but only those are sinners who deliberately commit sin.
DeleteDear Grow up in faith,
As one poster pointed out, the NCW have contributed monetary donations to the parish and that can be proven through the parish.If you believe that the NCW is money laundering, then go ahead and report the NCW to the police. Since you are making the accusation, then the burden of proof is on you. Go ahead and bring your evidence to the police and report the NCW of money laundering or whatever to the police. If you do not have any evidence, then stop spreading false accusations. Do not be like Mother Dawn who falsely accused Archbishop Apuron of revealing the donor’s identity when she did that herself in 2014 through social media.
Whatever documentations you think you have have obviously already been proven to be false. Why? Because the Pope has already confirmed our calling, supported our mission, and blessed us. You may think that the NCW is not Catholic, but that does not matter and that is not our problem. The important thing is that the Pope (including previous pope’s) have acknowledged us to be Catholic.
Grow up in faith, I don't know what parish you're from, but I'm from the parish of Chalan Pago. Since you are so concern about MONEY, you can contact the finance officer of Chalan Pago parish, and he can tell you that the NCW contribute their money to the parish whenever we have Eucharist in Chalan Pago. As Diana said, it's always about the MONEY.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous it is not about money at all, but about church resources. How do you use responsibly the resources of the Catholic Church as expressed by the faithful? Each parishioner is a resource of treasure, time and talent under the umbrella of the Holy Mother Church. We are called to be Catholics, we belong to the church which is the Body of Christ. Now, NCW is perceived as outsourcing parishioners from their parish into private business, from Christ to the corporation. As Diana said, it is none of the business of anybody else, not even the parish priest or the bishop, what you do with your resources in the NCW. It is the problem. It is a question of transparency and accountability of being Catholic. Not the money, but the whole thing.
DeleteDiana at 12.57 p.m., the variation between practice at your "community" and "communities" I've known, where there wasn't this accountability, aids the deniability factor.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, canons 273 and 275 don't have as much force as you allege, not anywhere in the world.
Dear Morris I,
DeleteAs I said, Pope Francis has confirmed our call, support our mission, and blessed us. That is sufficient enough for us. The reason why laws are recorded in the books is so that we can correct people like Father William, using the canon law as our support.
Your citing canons 273 and 275 doesn't address the point William made (quoted here).
ReplyDeleteIf the "way" was a true diocesan way and was a true 4-year catechumenate, the funds would go to the diocese anyway, similar to how Anonymous 9.41 describes.
Whatever the preferences of specific Holy Fathers, the canons don't exactly support irregularity or such a kind as William describes, where this is occurring.
Money is only part of responsibility taking, respect, pastoral care and the like.
Dear Morris I,
DeleteIt is always about the money and never anything else, and that is so sad. The purpose of God’s Church is to save souls, not count the number of paying bodies in the church.
Please refer to my comment on the "RMS in Macau" thread about what the complaints have indeed been about. I'm genuinely glad the purposes are clearer in your district. Best wishes!
ReplyDelete