The important thing is that many from the shanties were converted to Jesus Christ, their conversion was really amazing. You could touch the Holy Ghost, one was awed. For example… I’ll tell you another anecdote of a gypsy. We celebrated the Eucharist with the full liturgical renovation: with the unleavened bread in the form of bread, we had communion under both species —Monsignor Murillo had authorized it— and we did not allow communion to those who had not assisted to the catechetical process, because there were all kinds of people there. There was a gypsy that went with his wife and remained standing, they saw us all sitting at the table, and when we gave each other the sign of peace I went to offer the peace to this gypsy and he said to me: “I can’t resist it any more, the next time I’ll sit there, I’ll sit with you!” Next day he came with his wife and said: “Take it!” He gave me everything he had stolen: He had understood that in order to sit at the table he had to stop stealing. He went to confession —he had not been to confession in years— and he took a seat in joy at being able to commune with the Lord’s Body.This conversion of heart is one of the many fruits of the Neocatechumenal Way. God calls each of us to be holy regardless of whether one is in the vocation of married life, single life, or religious life. As Sonny Ada pointed out in the Pacific Daily News:
"The Neocatechumenal Way is a charism. It’s a help from the mother church in Rome that's here to help communities around the world. In Guam, we’re very fortunate to have it and I really hope the Holy Spirit will guide the archbishop and those involved in continuing to see the Neocatechumenal Way flourish in Guam," said Ada, president of Ada's Trust and Investment Inc.........
"Some people can go to the gym and lose weight. Some need a coach. Same thing spiritually. Some can go to the church, some can do the rosaries, but some need a coach and the Neocatechumenal Way helps me in my faith walk," Ada said.The Church is like a hospital, and it has many tools to heal people of all walks of life. For some, they only need the Mass. For others, they may need extra help. The different charisms of the Church are the tools to help each member for each member is unique. The Neocatechumenal Way was able to help those living in the slums of Madrid....Catholics who do not attend Mass because they are too busy trying to survive the poverty they live in.
The Neocatechumenal Way has also been known to inspire vocations into the priesthood and religious life, which is another fruit of the Way. Young men and women have entered the convent or seminary due to this inspiration. As Pope Francis stated:
Regarding the Redemptoris Mater Seminaries, I say the following: what would it be of the Diocese of Rome without it? I’ve just ordained 16 priests and 13 were from the Neocatechumenal Way. You draw the conclusions.There are over 100 Redemptoris Mater Seminary worldwide. The RMS in Guam shut down, but 4 more sprung up in place worldwide. The attitude of many of the RMS priests toward persecution is remarkable. An example is Father Pallu, who was kidnapped in Nigeria. Despite the fact that he was kidnapped and threatened with death, Father Pallu wishes to remain in Nigeria.
Other fruits of the Way include a passionate commitment in building up their parish. Many brothers volunteer as altar servers, Eucharistic ministers, Lectors, CCD instructors, choir members, and many more. Many contribute to their parish through volunteer work in maintaining the parish grounds, cleaning inside the church, and even in providing flowers for the altar. They do these work for free without any pay.
The Way have also instilled a missionary zeal, not only among single people, but also among families. There are mission families and itinerants spreading the good news. How do we know what comes from God? Christ said, "It is by their fruits that you will recognize them." If it produces no fruit or bad fruit, eventually it will die out or be cut down. In May 2018, the NCW will be in Rome to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Roman communities with Pope Francis.
SAINT Pope John Paul II:
Like every anniversary, seen in the light of faith, yours too becomes an opportunity for praise and thanksgiving for the abundant gifts that in these years the Lord has granted you and, through you, to the whole Church. For many people the Neocatechumenal experience has been a journey of conversion and maturing in the faith through the rediscovery of Baptism as a true source of life, and of the Eucharist as the culminating moment in Christian life; through the rediscovery of the word of God which, shared in fraternal communion, becomes a light and guide for life; through the rediscovery of the Church as an authentic missionary community.
Diana, are you claiming that the neo was invented in the slums of Madrid for illiterate gypsies, burglars, prostitutes, alcoholics and thieves? Are you saying the slum-dwellers even changed their lives and many from the shanties were converted to Jesus?
ReplyDeleteI am greatly amazed. What does it mean to be converted to Jesus?
Is it true that the gypsies were sitting at the sacrificial table together with Kiko to celebrate and consume the Eucharist? This sounds very much like having a banquet from the Body of Jesus at the table of Christ. Do you still sit at the table of Lord at Holy Mass?
Dear Joanne,
DeleteThe answer to your questions are in the post. As to your last question.....I already made it clear that we are following the instruction of Archbishop Byrnes as to how he wants us to celebrate the Eucharist.
Dear Joanne @ 1:48pm
DeletePlease elaborate what converting to Jesus means to you. Since you are accusing the way and those in it to not authentically converting to Jesus. Please define your terms. My best guess is your answer will be so outrageous that it will dispel your own accusation immediately.
My definition of loving Jesus, is to love him above everything to the point of willingness to reject all material things as St. Ignatius, St. Francis and many other Saints have done in order to follow Christ.
Before you respond with a worldly response of I have children and excuses to defend yourself. Let me just quote Christ himself. "Whoever does not hate father, mother, child, daughter and even his own life cannot be my disciple." Yes hate is the best and closes translation to the original text according to scholars.
Christ himself rejected his own Mother in order to follow the will of his father, and by doing this he was loving his mother truly because he was teaching her the the will of God is above everything, even family. As he says when his extended family presents his widowed mother to him. He says who is my mother, or brother. Him who follows the will of my father are my mother, brother etc. I can quote for ages, and you will still speak with unfounded accusations towards the NCW because it denounces your lack of authenticity and extremism of the gospel. Something that all the popes have commonly asked people to do is follow the radicalism of the gospel. Either your hot or cold, but not lukewarm.
If this makes you hate the NCW, then the NCW is doing its job of being light of the nations as Lumen Gentium asks of the Church in Second Vatican Council.
Dear 11:31 pm, Jesus makes a clear distinction between His disciples and His followers. His disciples can be thought of as consecrated priests or the religious. But His followers include all Christians!
DeleteYou don't need to be a disciple to get saved. Going to heaven requires you to repent and keep your conscience clean from sin by the Holy Sacraments of the Church. The proprietary sacrifice of Jesus has paid it full already for all your sins! That is why we call Jesus a Savior who saved all Christians.
If you want to be a disciple or consecrated priest, then you have to be able to separate from your immediate family. However, if you don't get consecrated, then you have no reason to get separated from them. Then you don't need to hate those whom you love.
Dear anon @ 1:24
DeleteThere is just one flaw in your argument. Priests didn't exist. The closest thing was the Pharisees and leaders of the Jewish community. The disciples where lay men. The virgin Mary followed Christ in the same manner if we follow her life. The disciples also had spouses.
It is true you do not need to be a disciple to be saved. Just like you don't need the NCW to be saved. We are speaking about becoming followers of Christ which is what the word Christian means as well a disciple.
Your last comment is also against Christ's own words. Doesn't Christ say those who are married act as if they are not. Christ always asks those around him to radically follow him. You don't have to but you cannot water down his words either. He calls us to be the Man of the spirit as he explains to nicodemus.
ANYONE can answer the call to be a Christian in the radical sense of the word. Married, single, priest, etc. You can also choose not to follow this path. I was simply answering what conversion to Christ is. Otherwise all people are converted to Christ if nothing in our life needs to change.
I believe that it would be useful and enlightening to illustrate the fruits of groups such as: CCoG, JW and Tim Rohr (starting with his preference for vulgarian analogies of the people he dislikes)... but I guess that, as genuine followers of Christ, unlike them (judging by their fruits), we will not sink to their level.
ReplyDeleteAre the abuses and lawsuits the fruits of CCG or the neo? The betrayal of the Mother Church on Guam is causing much pain and suffering to the tender heart of the Queen of Heaven and her saints.
ReplyDeletePray for loving intercession of the Virgin Mary for the restoration of faith and trust in her Divine Son's church and the parishes of Jesus Christ.
Dear Joanne,
DeleteI blame the offense on the perpetrators rather than on the institution or an organization. Do not be like some of the Protestant Fundamentalists who claimed that the CATHOLIC CHURCH sexually abuses children. The truth is.....SOME MEMBERS of the clergy in the Catholic Church sexually abused children. That is the truth. Please learn to determine the difference. Your hatred of the NCW is showing.
Joanne - either your mocking the blessed mother or your own household (the Catholic Church). Your comments gives you away being part of the CCOG,LFM etc. Stop trolling since JW prevent you from posting. Please share something intelligent to discuss.
DeleteLuis L. Carino ======> Espana
Dear Luis, I tried to explain Diana that I don't feel hate toward anyone. I spent a lot of time to write in a way that is not taken as offensive. But how? You may ask her to release my comment. It is very confusing that I am not able to tell because my submission is rejected and not seen. Thanks.
DeleteYou Got that right Luis!!! go back to the Jungle %) ''Joanne'' all negative -
DeleteDear Joanne,
DeleteIt is obvious that you have nothing good to say about the NCW. I posted on my blog to prepare our trip to Rome. Then you come online, telling the NCW not to go to Rome, and pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary. What is up with that? I then posted about some of the good fruits the NCW produced. You came online and asked if one of those fruits also include the sexual abuse and lawsuit and then again say pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Again, what is up with the "pray to the Virgin Mary"???? Your comments are nothing but insults.
Dianna, let me make a suggestion. I think you misread Joanne's comment. She was asking the very same question about CCOG (CCG) as the NCW. She is not from the JW. She has been publishing at your blog for several years, if you may recall.
DeleteIn her comment she is led by respect and curiosity. I don't think she has an agenda. She is a person of devotion leading a very simple family centered life. If she submitted a response to the accusations against her, then you should allow your readers to read it. Otherwise how can she have any chance to protect herself and her integrity?
My twopence worth of contribution for today.
Dear Joanne at 9:07,
ReplyDeleteWere you trying to imply something with that question? Please consider the difference between CCOG and the Way and at least know them before making what seems like a sarcastic remark in your question on abuses and lawsuits being fruits.
Catholic on Guam
Joanne
ReplyDeleteIt is shameful that you would use our blessed mother's name in such a way. You are defaming her name. It reminds me of the story of a few saints to whom lucifer would appear disguised as our blessed mother. You are lucifer today diaguised as our blessed mother trying to fool people with divisive hateful comments a dressing them up with our blessed mother.
@ Joanne - similar to you. One of the Saint said. If any of the saints appear to you and to make sure whether is not the Devil. Spit on it, if gets angry. Is the devil.
DeleteLuis L.Carino =====Espana
"and we did not allow communion to those who had not assisted to the catechetical process"
ReplyDeleteWhat does this mean? Kiko "did not allow" some people to have communion? And yet he "allowed" communion for the others "sitting at the table"?
So, not only is Kiko the arbiter of souls and the judge of spiritual life, but he also has authority to do away with the altar and have you all "sit at the table"?
Such fruits.
Does you list of fruits include the division that accompanies the NCW virtually everywhere it goes? Soes it include the fact that for every five people that join the NCW, four of them leave - and that of those that leave the NCW only a very small number remain with the Catholic Church?
Does it include the breakup of families, not the least when celebrating the Mass separately? Do the fruits include a false Christology that emphasizes the humanity of Jesus, and plays down his Divinity?
Do the fruits include ludicrous and worrying trauma visited on the NCW when someone has the audacity to question them, or God forbid, want to read the secret catechetical teachings?
Do the fruits include telling baptized Catholics that they know nothing of God and that they are full of selfishness and sin, still being slaves in Egypt, still servants of the devil?
Does it include how the NCW considers that leaving the NCW is the worst sin a person can commit? (not everyone is called to be salt and light, as you say).
Does it include nepotism; false accounting; the commandeering of Church facilities and the attention of pastors; the idolization of the Jewish people (whether they are religious or not); the sucking of money and goods from the "widows"?
I agree - by their fruits, you shall know them.
Dear Watcher,
DeleteSome people were not allowed to have holy communion such as the gypsy who was a thief and never went to confession. The division was never started by the NCW because the ones who complained were mainky the ones who were not walking such as Tim Rohr, Chuck White, and David Sablan. A person does not have to join the Way if he/she does not want to. The choice is theirs. All the things you accuse the NCW are false.
How about this one:
DeleteMarriages rebuilt, women and men forgiving their spouse for infidelity, Drunks and Drug Addicts getting sober, openness to life, giving to the poor, homosexuals being celebate, boys joining the seminary, girls going to the cloister, abused forgiving their abusers, REAL forgiveness of sins (because in this world no one recalls forgives) I mean I don’t know maybe all these people could have done this without the Way but let me tell you it was in the way they heard a WORD, the word was GOD LOVES YOU AS YOU ARE!!!! and that word was what helped them change their lives. How many times have you listened to your words is it word of love or is it hate. So yeah the fruits are visible if you choose to see them. If you don’t then it’s ok God still loves you as you are.
Dear Give thanks to the Lord, this is not exactly that the Bible says. God does not love you but hates you if you become a sinner by violating the Ten Commandments. 450 priests of Baal violated the Ten Commandments by bowing down to Baal, a god of wooden carved image. Then Elijah would pray and ask for God to show them that they were sinners:
Delete"Answer me, O Lord, answer me, that this people may know that you, O Lord, are God, and that you have turned their hearts back.” Then the fire of the Lord fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces and said, “The Lord, he is God; the Lord, he is God.” And Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape.” And they seized them. And Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon and slaughtered them there." (1 Kings 18,37-40)
God loved the burnt offering of Elijah, his prophet, the delicious bull on the stone altar even the water that He consumed with great joy. This is how God treats the people whom He loves, because they follow His Ten Commandments.
But God intensely hated the 450 priests of Baal, because they were sinners, they refused to follow the Ten Commandments and bowed down before a wooden carved god. They were seized with no escape and slaughtered, all 450 of them, by the anointed prophet of God. Because this is how He treats the sinners whom He hates.
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteGod loves you even when you are a sinner. God has always loved the sinner. It is the sin that he hates.
Christ died to save sinners. That is how he loves the sinners. He gave up his life for them.
Rom 5:8 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
The 450 priests of Baal died for their own sin. Nobody died for them and they went down to the eternal fire that is hell. There is a distinction between sinner and sinner. One goes down to the pit, but the other is saved. This is the justice of God. No sinner from the Old Testament is in heaven because Jesus could not save those who were already in hell.
DeleteWatcher - quit confusing and twisting things. The NCW is not about numbers if how many have stayed. All of us has a freedom to leave. I stayed because this is an instrument that leads me to focus on God.How many times your morbid CCOG was informed that this charism is another way of evaglization, you can live in monastery and live a holy life. A Christian way of life are 3 fundamental form. Word of God, Community and the Holy Eucharist. Your heart burn towards the Neocathecumenal kills you and you don't know it. Envy of the fruits of this Charism will destroy you. Confess your sins because your judgement will do you any good but destroy your soul.
DeleteLuis L. Carino=====> Espana
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteAccording to the Holy Bible (capitalization is mine):
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;
Christ died not only for me and you, but also for sinners in the Old Testament. We do not know who is in Hell. However, the Church teaches that ONLY the UNREPENTENT sinner goes to Hell. It never says that those who are ignorant will go to Hell.
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (632-635) and the Holy Bible (1 Peter 3:18-19), Christ went down to the depths of Hell to preach to the souls there so they will come to know him. Those who hear and believe were saved.
Dear Watcher why do you make things up.
DeleteAll are allowed to participate in the NCW eucharist, including taking part in holy communion. However since the NCW is a a catechumenate in other words a path to education to adult christian life, then it is recommended for those in mortal sin not to part take. This is not NCW teachings this is the teachings of the Catholic Church. However this is said generally, each individual can do as he wishes, no one controls anyone as you are trying to suggest. Relationship between God and self is always personal. Catechist help in so much as their help is requested, as guides.
2nd point you made:
Division? Anywhere we go? Where do you make up these stats. Any parish that has the way has an increase in church attendance from every group, not just from the NCW this only shows your own personal bias against the NCW because it recommends doing catechesis before participating for obvious reasons. The vatican has allowed the NCW to receive communion and celebrate the eucharist the way we do because it is in a catechetical setting. It would be unbecoming of us if people can just come and go and talk ill about the way we celebrate the liturgy because they lack knowledge as you do. Hence we are faithful to Rome and request that people enter the NCW as a catechumenate through the Catechesis.
3rd point you made:
4th point you made:
Are you not questioning us here? Are we not providing answers to those who authentically want answers, maybe the problem is you are looking for specific bias answers that wBreaking up families? Please give examples, because the NCW is known for exactly the opposite. False Christology? Again please give examples, because Benedict XVI has read all the catechetical books of the NCW and fought for their approval. This is the same Pope who is recognized by both Catholics and Atheist as being one of the most intelligent men on earth. So please be specific to dispel what you might have heard from people who invent facts to advocate against the NCW. If anything we emphathize both things. Otherwise we wouldn't believe that he could save us from anything, or we wouldn't emphasize that salvation and happiness can only be found in Christ because he is God. But down playing his suffering as many do and his humanity is also discrediting his sacrifice which is why we believe he is fully human fully divine. You seem to imply that he has no humanity.
---- part 1
Delete5th point you made:
As for the catechetical books, they are meant to be taught and experienced they are not a secret. They have been approved fully by prefect for the Faith. So they are not a secret since the Catholic Church has reviewed and approved them.
6th point you made:
Is this not the starting point of all christian spirituality? Christ starts his life by telling his people they are sinners and need to convert. Same as John the baptist, this is the starting point of all Christian life this only means you have no contact with scripture of Catholic tradition. The result is humility, and experiencing the love of Christ as the experience of all the saints will the saints will tell you. Romans 7:14 I believe it is. St. paul calls himself a slave of sin. So you are basically denying scripture which is infallible. Christ tells his own people they serve their father the devil. HIS OWN PEOPLE who he loved dearly.
7th Point you made:
Nepotism? Again made up stuff. This only tells us that you have personal issues towards the way that has nothing to do with the facts. As for the Jewish people? Idol? If we idolized them, then people would be converting to Judaism wouldn't they? So these are obvious false accusations. We just recognize the roots of Christianity as the past three Popes have done. With the difference that we have a messiah which we would never give up since he has saved us from our selfish lives. Sucking money from widows? Was it not a single nun who made a donation to buy the Yona property to be used as a seminary for the formation of missionary priests to extend the gospel. Is it not your people and ccog who have fought relentlessly to steal this property and donation that was made by this women to resell it and make a profit worth millions. Tim Rohr = Realtor = Conflict of interest. We give you facts you return invented accusations.
In Summary:
Agreed by their fruits you will know them. All I see in the NCW is adherence and fidelity to Catholic Teachings and the Popes. Such strong fidelity that it denounces lukewarm hateful people like you, and you publicly create scandal to shy the weakest among us away from the NCW. People whose life can be change, and who can have true encounters with Christ through the NCW. For this as the Gospel says. Those who scandalize the little ones, it is better that a rock be tied to his neck and he is thrown to the sea.
Dear Diana, what you say does not sound right. The sinners who were damned in the Old Testament for violating the Ten Commandments were not allowed to go to the heaven even after Jesus visited the netherworld. CCC 633 says:
Delete"Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation." The 450 priests of Baal were surely damned because they violated the Ten Commandments by bowling down before the carved image of their god, Baal! None of them were allowed to go to heaven.
CCC 637 summarizes: "Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him." The gates were opened for the just only, who were not sinners because they did not violate the Ten Commandment. They were in hell only because they waited for Jesus to descent among them and free them.
This is just one example from the Old Testament, but you see there many! The priests of Baal were not loved or liked by God "as they were". They were sinners and were hated by God! Thus they received their just punishment in eternal fire according to the Law.
Dear Critiqued,
DeleteThat is correct. Jesus did not descend to Hell to deliver the damned. The damned are the unrepentant sinners. No one knows who is damned. Those priests of Baal were ignorant, worshipping a false god. This is what St. Paul said of the pagans who worshipped false gods:
Acts 17:29-30 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Do you not see, Critiqued? The Apostle Paul told the PAGANS in Athens who worshipped false gods .....yes PAGANS just like the priests of Baal who were also pagans worshipping a false god.
The Apostle Paul told these pagans that IN THE PAST, God overlooked their ignorance. Jesus died on the cross for the REMISSION OF SINS FROM THE PAST. He went to the depths of Hell to preach so that those who were ignorant of him could also hear the good news and believe in Him. How do you know that ALL the pagans in Hell were damned?
Furthermore, you stated: "The gates were opened for the just only, who were not sinners because they did not violate the Ten Commandment."
Who in the Old Testament is NOT a sinner????? For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). The Catholic Church teaches that there are only two people who lived without sin: Jesus and Mary.
Diana, the 450 priests of Baal were sent right to hell by the prophet Elijah. He executed God's command on the sinners. His sword was led to kill them all by the hatred of God toward the damned.
DeleteDear critiquer,
DeleteI am reluctant to answer bc Diana has been doing it so well but your ignorance is so abysmal that it terrifies me. Imagine if people who call themselves Christian have your lack of knowledge and understanding of the Bible and of Catholicism! I shiver at the thought. You really should go listen to a catechesis. Except I don’t think you would understand it because of your prejudice.
There is a difference between sinner and sinner? I am assuming that you mean there is a difference between sin and sin. Ihopeyou are. So when St. Paul says “I am an abortion” because he persecuted and had Christians killed you are saying that he was better than other sinners? Are you saying that there are good sinners and bad sinners? Is there a hierarchy?like a great saint is at the top and hitler at the bottom? Even just plain non-religious logic revolts at your thought process. Are you saying that Christ who had lunch with prostitutes and thieves endorses the idea that some people are good and others bad? You should really consider calling yourself a Zoroastrian, but that is definitely not catholic thought.
Like when he says that god doesn’t hear the prayer of the Pharisee who thinks he is better than the publican?
Hatred of God for the damned? God hates??? What is he a 3 year old having a temper tantrum? I don’t even know where to start trying to help you!
I beg you, since you can’t listen to a catechesis right now, go read the catechism of the Catholic Church. And maybe some good author who can explain how In the Bible god works with people to help them grow from superstition to faith. Good grief! Lord have mercy on your church when its people spew this kind of drivel.
How about Amalek and Haman the Amalekite then? The Bible says:
Delete"This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” (1 Sam 15, 2:3) This was because the Amalekites were sinners and had blood on their hands.
About Haman the Amalekite: "The king said to his men, “Put Haman to death! Stick the pole through his body! Set it up where everyone can see it!” So they did. (Esther 7:9-10)
All this because God hated Amalek for his sin: "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write this in [m]a book as a memorial and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.” Moses built an altar and named it The Lord is My Banner; and he said, “The Lord has sworn; the Lord will have war against Amalek from generation to generation.” (Ex 17:14-16)
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteThe Holy Bible is a history of the salvation of mankind. One needs to read scripture in the context of the entire Bible.
Since the beginning, God planned to redeem mankind despite the disobedience of Adam and Eve and their descendants. This shows a loving God....a loving Father. If you are a parent, you should be able to understand that even if your child disobeys you, you still love your child. As parents, we discipline our children whenever they do something bad, but that does not make us love them any less. We still love our children. It is the same with God our Father. He is the perfect Father. Despite that His children whom He created in His image have sinned, God did not abandon them (See Genesis 3:15). The New Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Testament. In His mercy, God sent His Son to redeem mankind, not just the Jews.
The Israelites of the Old Testament waited for a Messiah and knew that He would come. However, the Pagans or Gentiles of the Old Testament did not know anything about a Messiah. They worshiped other gods and persecuted the Israelites because they were ignorant. Just like St. Paul when he persecuted the Christians. He was ignorant at that time.
Christ went to the depths of Hell to PREACH to the souls there (See 1 Peter 18-19). These souls were also the pagans or Gentiles of the Old Testament. God did not abandon the Gentiles of the New Testament, so why should He abandon the Gentiles of the Old Testament???? Christ came into this world to save sinners (See 1 Timothy 1:15). He sent His Apostles out into the world of the Gentiles, telling them to preach the good news to them. Christ did not abandon the Gentiles of the New Testament; therefore, He would also not abandon the Gentiles of the Old Testament. Why else would Christ go the depths of Hell to PREACH to them? According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead." The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
As you can see from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Christ reached out to all the people including those of the Old Testament as He preached the good news of salvation in Hell. After He preached to them, it is possible that many pagans of the Old Testament came to believe Him. We simply do not know. But again....this shows the love and mercy of God for mankind.
The Gentiles (pagans) of the Old Testament also needed to hear the good news so that they can also have salvation. It is the same today. Catholics are called to preach the good news to all the ends of the earth so that even today's Gentiles can have salvation.
Dear critiquer,
DeleteDo you know how and why the Bible was written?
Dear anon, I would appreciate if you would name yourself. The Bible was written by holy men and women led by God's inspiration. In the Bible God reveals his eternal nature that does not change any bit as time passes hundreds and hundreds, thousands and thousands or millions and millions of years. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow!
DeleteDear Diana, as you read Jesus did not destroy hell and did not deliver the damned. The good news was his death and not his resurrection. Only the righteous were saved from the netherworld who waited patiently until the message of redemption came to them through Jesus and opened the gates of heaven for them. But not for the damned. After you die you cannot repent, but people still can pray for your soul.
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteYou stated: "The good news was his death and not his resurrection."
What good is his death if there is no news of his resurrection???? How is that even news? If newspapers existed in those days, the front page would be his resurrection. Why? Because anyone can die, but who can rise from the dead? That would be newsworthy. The good news the Apostles spread was that Christ resurrected from the dead. His resurrection conquered death. This conquest of death brought redemption to mankind.
I also noticed that you had nothing to say about what I quoted in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The catechism clearly stated that after Christ died, he descended to Hell to preach the good news. That was the last of his ministry.
Diana, this is exactly that I was talking about! When Jesus died on Good Friday and descended to the netherworld, the only good news He delivered in preaching to the righteous of the Old Testament sojourning in hell was His death! His resurrection happened only three days later at the dawn of Easter Sunday!
DeleteSo He preached to the righteous the good news of redemption that was completed by His obedient death on the cross! He was destined to save the humanity from the beginning of the creation of the world. He did not deliver the damned nor did He destroy the hell of damnation (CCC 633). His propitiatory sacrifice was sufficient for the forgiveness of sins. His blood as that of an unblemished lamb was poured out to pay the price and free the righteous from the bondage of hell.
Among the first souls who ever entered heaven was the repentant thief, St. Dismas, whom the Lord said today you will be with me in paradise.
https://catholicexchange.com/saint-dismas
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteChrist was already preaching about his resurrection even BEFORE he died. In fact, that was the reason why soldiers were sent to guard the tomb. When Jesus was alive, he made it known that he will rise from the dead in three days (See Matthew 27:62-66)
You say that Christ preached only to the righeous in the land of the dead. Then why was he preaching to the sinners on earth? If Christ preached to the sinners on earth, it stands to reason that he would also be preaching to the sinners in the land of the dead. After all, Christ is the same today, tomorrow, and forever. He doesn't change. He has always preached to the prostitutes, the greedy tax collectors, and the rest of the sinners.
Why preach to the righteous when their faith has already saved them? The Bible clearly stated that Christ came to save the sinners. After all, it is the sinner who needs saving.
1 Timothy 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
Both thieves on the cross were sinners, but only one of them believed in him. His repentance and faith in Christ saved him, but he was a sinner to begin with. He was an unrighteous UNTIL he met Christ. After all, he was a thief and anyone who steals is unrighteous.....are they not???
Christ descended to Hell to preach the good news to the dead so that like St. Dismas (who was an unrighteous thief to begin with), they would also believe in him and have salvation.....just like St. Dismas.
Diana, again, after you die you cannot repent, but people still can pray for your soul. How can the damned be saved after death? This does not make sense to me! How can one's soul begin to believe in Christ and have salvation while already in the hell? Are you saying it is enough to believe without repentance?
DeleteDear Critiquer,
DeleteI never said that the dead can repent. The dead is already dead. Furthermore, do you not remember? I showed you in the Bible that Christ's death on the cross brought forgiveness of sins of the PAST. Nowhere in the Bible did it say that he died for the remission of "future" sins. The Bible clearly stated that it was for the remission for the sins of the "PAST."
Christ preached to the dead so that they can come to know and believe in Him. Preaching the good news means to tell people that Christ rose from the dead. When Christ went to the depths of Hell, he preached that he is the life and resurrection and all who believe in Him will have salvation for he has come to conquer death. Why else would Christ preach to the dead? If they cannot have salvation, then preaching to them is useless. However, we know that God does not do useless things. His death brought mercy and forgiveness of their sins. It is now their choice to believe in Him or not.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that salvation is for all mankind in all ages and in all places. God did not abandon anyone.
Diana, I am afraid I am loosing your point. I did not talk about past or future. Why do you think your sins were not forgiven? Salvation is eternal and universal. But not for the damned who turned away from Jesus in contempt by their own choice. Are you saying the damned souls in hell are part of the "mankind" who also have salvation? How? They have no body.
DeleteDear Critiquer,
DeleteWhere in any of my comments did I ever say that the damned were saved????
I said Christ went to Hell to preach to the dead. The dead who disobeyed can be saved, but the damned cannot. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead." The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
Also, the Catholic Church teaches that salvation can be lost. All a person had to do to lose his/her salvation is to reject God.
Diana, you stated: "Christ descended to Hell to preach the good news to the dead so that (...) they would also believe in him and have salvation." The Catholic Church does not teach that! When Jesus descended, He found two kinds of souls in hell: the damned who were unrepentant sinners in their earthly lives and the righteous who repented while still on earth. He preached the Good news of His propitiatory sacrifice on the cross that brought salvation to the righteous. Salvation means opening the gates of heaven so that souls of the dead can enter. These righteous souls, despite their repentance, were not allowed to enter heaven before the death of Jesus on the cross because the gates of heaven were still closed for everyone! Jesus brought the salvation to complete fulfillment by opening the gates so that the righteous could enter.
Delete"Preaching the good news means to tell people that Christ rose from the dead." As I told you, this statement entails a logical error. Jesus could not preach about His resurrection before He was actually risen! He could only make prediction about His resurrection in three days after He dies. But prediction is not yet preaching.
"The dead who disobeyed can be saved." What do you mean by that? Who are the dead who disobeyed? Disobeyed what? When? As soon as you die, the fate of your soul in going to heaven or hell is sealed. You cannot change that anymore! Those who pray for you may only reduce the time your soul sojourns in the Purgatory. They cannot pray you from hell to heaven! The soul of the dead in hell cannot repent either and cannot claim salvation by beginning to believe in Christ. That would be too late to start with without their body! They can have salvation only if they had repented while still alive on earth!
"Why preach to the righteous when their faith has already saved them?" Then why were they in hell? Because there was no salvation for the mankind before Jesus! The sins of Adam and Eve closed the gates of heaven! CCC teaches that even the righteous had to wait for the Good News that was brought them by Jesus! They waited for the Good News of the redemptive power of the bloody sacrifice of Jesus that opened the gates of heaven for all who were to be saved.
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteI already said that Christ preached to the dead. I also said, he did not preach to the damned. I never said that he saved the damned. I also said that there is none righteous because all fall short of the glory of God. The only two people without sins who ever walked on this earth are Jesus and Mary. Everyone else was born with Original Sin. If you want to call those with Original sin "righteous"....go ahead. But they still have sin in them.
The Holy Bible also stated that Christ preached to the spirits who were disobedient. See the scripture below (capitalization is mine).
1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.After being made alive,[fn] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—TO THOSE WHO WERE DISOBEDIENT LONG AGO when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
You stated: "Jesus could not preach about His resurrection before He was actually risen!"
The Bible says that he preached about his resurrection, which is the reason why soldiers were sent to guard his tomb. The Catechism of the Catholic Church also says that Christ taught his people about the resurrection progressively (See CCC 992).
I believe the problem in this debate is the terminology. You believe that the dead is the same as the damned when they are not. As for the righteous......only those without sins are righteous. Those who were waiting for Christ to raise them up still had sin. All were born with Original Sin except Jesus and Mary.
I define "righteous" as those without sin such as Jesus and Mary and the Saints already in Heaven. You define "righteous" as people who have sin. This is where the problem lies. Many of the people in the Old Testament such as Abraham had righteous behavior, but they were not righteous in the sense that they still have Original sins. Abraham even committed a personal sin when he lied about Sarah being his sister and not his wife.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that all were made sinners by one man's disobedience, but through Christ's obedience, many were made "righteoius." Therefore, it was Christ obedience on the cross that made them righteous. They were not righteous individuals to begin with because UNTIL Christ came to take away their sins. Jesus came for the sinners, not the righteous (CCC 588).
I would also like to add that it appears that you believe that only the Israelites of the Old Testament were saved while everyone else who are not an Israelite are damned. This is not who God is.
Delete@Joanne, could you please read the thread before you make your comments.
Dear Diana, are you fighting a straw figure? Where are your claims "appearing" as you say? Those are damned who die without repenting their sin! The sin must be mortal, Israelite or not. God expects you to repent and lead a righteous life.
DeleteYou said at 12:58: "The good news the Apostles spread was that Christ resurrected from the dead. His resurrection conquered death. This conquest of death brought redemption to mankind."
Despite what you state, redemption came through the righteous death of the Lord and not through His resurrection. The propitiatory sacrifice of Christ was sufficient for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world! His blood as the blood of an unblemished lamb was poured out to pay the price and free the righteous from the bondage of sin.
The Good News is of the redemptive power of the bloody sacrifice of Jesus that opened the gates of heaven for all who were to be saved.
Dear Critiquet,
DeleteWhere in any of my comments did I say that Christ rescued the damned. You cannot separate Christ’s death from his resurrection because they are one. In the same way, you cannot separate sin and death because the wages of sin is death.
This is why we celebrate Easter Sunday and why Sunday became the Lord’s day. Sin and death has been conquered. This debate started with you stating that God hates the sinner. The Catholic never taught this. They have always taught that God loves the sinner that he gave his life for them. From one man’s disobedience, all were made sinners. And from Christ’s obedience, all were made righteous.
Dear Diana, Jesus would not expel those whom He loves into the hell! The hell is a place of endless suffering. There are sinners who repent and those who don't. If you are an unrepentant sinner, then God is a terrible God for you and you won't have place under the sun.
DeleteGod hated Haman the Amalekite, because Haman tortured and plotted against the innocent. He was a wicked sinner. The Lord also hated Adolf Hitler for his murderous character. You know you are damned when you don't feel the love of Jesus anymore.
God sends damnation on those who cause harm and hurt the innocent. Jesus' love is not granted to the unrepentant sinner. "Whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven." (Matt 10:33) Once you despise the outpouring blood of Christ, you lose the love of the Lord. Then you cannot return to righteousness. There is no way get freed from the place of damnation.
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteAn unrepentant sinner is a person who is fully aware of his sin, but he is not sorry for the sin. He is the one who sees nothing wrong with his sin even if it hurts someone. He has no remorse or regret and feels that whatever harm he cause the other is justified because he feels the other person deserved the hurt. He is the one with full knowledge of the gravity of his sin but intentionally commits the sin without any remorse.
God does not put us in the eternal fires of Hell. If a person is in Hell, it is because he put himself there by 1) rejecting God and His salvation and 2) the mortal sin. There are 3 things that makes a sin motal: 1) the sin must be grave, 2) the person is fully aware that it is a sin and 3) the person gives his consent to the sin without any intention of repentance. In other words, the sin was committed without any ignorance but with full knowledge and full consent.
All three of these conditions must be met in order for the person to be damned. If even one of these conditions is lacking, the sin is not mortal. So, how do you know that Amalekite met all three conditions? Do you not know that the Roman soldiers who killed Christ did not meet all three conditions? Their sin of killing an innocent man was very grave, but they had no idea who they killed. They did not have full knowledge that the person they crucified was the Son of God and an innocent person. They were ignorant.
God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. He sent his Son to conquer sin and death. Christ died for the sinners.
Diana, Haman plotted to kill the innocent and murder tens of thousands! He did not only consented, he gave the order! Don't you see it? He gave order for mass execution! He was a bad sinner, a living personification of sin itself. Of course, God hated Haman's sin which was Haman himself! It was one with him. Thus God hated Haman immensely! The same way as our Lord hates the Nazis and the Isis terrorists. Please, read the book of Esther!
Delete"Haman plotted to destroy all the Jews, the people of Mordecai, throughout the whole kingdom of Ahasuerus." (Est. 3:6)
Dear Critiquer,
DeleteWe know who God is through His Son Jesus Christ. Did not Christ taught us to love thy neighbor? Did He not taught us to love the enemy or those who hurt and persecute us? Why did He tell us to love even the enemy if God is going to hate the sinner???? He told us to love because that is who God is. God is love (1 John 4:8).
Just wondering why nobody has bothered to point out that Tim Rorh published an old post from April 2008 about his thoughts on the NCW. I read that with a lot of interest. Did you know that he was able to list 10 good things about the NCW and only 6 things he didn't care for? He hasn't always been against the NCW but I guess things can change in 10 years.
ReplyDeleteAlso I've been reading posts and comments in this blog off and on and one of the things I've noticed is how Tim Rorh is put down for his preference for the Latin Mass. But in his list he points out how some of the NCW seminarians were interested in learning how to celebrate the Latin Mass. He said Fr. Ivan asked Fr. Eric for his help and Fr. Eric agreed. But we know that nothing like that ever happened.
What ever happened to Fr. Ivan? Did he get in trouble for asking Fr. Eric for help in teaching about the Latin Mass?
Next time you want to accuse Tim of always being against the NCW you might want to read that post and ask yourself what happened to change his mind?
Just Wondering
Dear Just wondering,
DeleteWhere in my post and comments have I ever put down the Latin Mass? I have said that the Latin Mass is not for everyone. Rohr, on the other hand, has put down the regular church Mass as well as the way the NCW celebrates the Eucharist. I do not attend the Latin Mass simply because I do not understand Latin.
Somewhere in my post or comment, I even stated that Tim Rohr helped build up the Way because he was the one who ordered the Catholic books we needed. Unfortunately, the Tim Rohr of the past is not the same man today. He is not that person anymore.
Just wondering
DeleteTim Rohr begin his mission against the ncw with the yona property.
Diana,
ReplyDeleteHave you ever had fruit that was rotten inside? .... Fruit, which appears lovely on the outside, but inside it is wormy? Or Fruit that looked perfect, but tasted awful?
When growers experience such setbacks, they know change is inevitable.
Dear Anonymous at 10:46 pm,
DeleteCould you create a username? It sounds like you are describing CCoG. On the outside, they act concern over the financial situation of the church and even offer whatever help they can. But behind all that, their President was indicted for allegedly misusing government funds.