1. In May 2009, Kiko Arguello was awarded a Doctorate by the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family. According to news article:
2. In June 2013, Kiko Arguello was given an honorary doctorate from the John Paul II Catholic University in Poland for his contribution in the renewal of the Church. According to news report:The institute, situated at Rome’s Lateran University with other locations around the world, announced that on May 13 it will invest as doctors “Honoris Causa” both the Spanish founder, Francisco (Kiko) Argüello, and an Italian sociology professor, Pierpaolo Donati.A statement from the institute notes that the contributions of both men to the field of family studies are valued as “authoritative references for its own teaching and research work.”
3. In August 2014, Kiko Arguello was confirmed as the Consultor for the Pontifical Council of the Laity by Pope Francis for another five years. According to news report:Kiko Argüello, initiator and responsible of the Neocatechumenal Way, was formally invested with an honorary doctorate in Sacred Theology by the Catholic University of John Paul II in Lublin, Poland yesterday.According to the University, Argüello was awarded the honorary doctorate “for his valuable contribution to the renewal of the Church, carefully following the indications of the Second Vatican Council, bringing back Christians who have strayed from the ecclesial community to the sources of faith that come from the Bible and from the liturgy, in having initiated, with Mrs. Carmen Hernández, a Post-baptismal institution, an extremely precious work for today’s world, known worldwide as the Neocatechumenal Way. This form of Christian initiation, enhanced by the beauty of the new aesthetic, places today a work of evangelization and re-evangelization, all over the world; it prepares the missio ad gentes; actively intervenes so that Christianity and Judaism can come close to one another, defends the values of life and human dignity, marriage and the Christian family.
Pope Francis has confirmed the initiator and leader of the international lay movement the Neocatechumenal Way, as a consultor for the Pontifical Council for the Laity.
Kiko Argüello will serve for a five-year term. This confirmation is in addition to his nomination in 2011 as consultor of the Pontifical Council for the New Evangelization.
The international leader of the Neocatechumenal Way has belonged to the laity council since his appointment in 1993 by Blessed John Paul II, a nomination that continued for the rest of that pontificate and later on, under Benedict XVI.
Argüello has participated as an Auditor in various Synods in the past several years, the most recent being the Synod on the Eucharist (2005), the Synod on “the Word of God in the life and mission of the Church” (2008) and the Synod on “The New Evangelization for the transmission of the Christian faith” in 2012.4. In May 2015, Kiko Arguello and Carmen Hernandez received honorary degrees by the Catholic University of America. According to news report:
The Catholic University of America (CUA) has announced that they will confer honorary degrees on Kiko Argüello and Carmen Hernandez, the initiators of the Neocatechumenal Way on Saturday, May 16th, 2015.The conferral of the honoris causa by the only Pontifical University in the United States was proposed several years ago and was decided following Pope Francis’ meeting with the Neocatechumenal Way on March 6th.During that meeting, in which 250 families were sent in mission, the Holy Father defined the itinerary of Christian formation as “a true gift of Providence to the Church of our time.”
Why does it seem as if you worship this kiko more then our lord and the pope? Kiko and Carmen are no saints but you neofollowers seem to worship them as saints. Idk but that's how it seems to me personally from an outside point of view.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 10:57 am,
DeleteListing down a person's achievements is not worship. Parents do it all the time when they brag and proudly list their child's achievement. The problem here is your hate. If you could let go of your hate, you would be able to see what he was awarded and why.
While they're a nice recognition and probably look good hanging on the wall, honorary degrees are not 'real' degrees; in other words, being awarded an honorary degree is not the same as earning an actual doctorate.
DeleteIn fact, an honorary degree is a degree honoris causa, Latin for 'for the sake of the honor'.
Dear Anonymous at 6:57 pm,
DeleteDo I detect a tinge of jealousy. 😉
Kiko Arguello lived as a dedicated layman founding the Neocatechumenal way a recognized ecclesial spiritual path. A path which led individials families to closer union with the Lord through community prayer eucharist scripture. To those who walk in the way a door to holiness of life opened. To call the founder an evil heretic is a direct attack on the faith of the church. A grave injustice to thousands of souls who discerned a deeper spiritual meaning through community. Once again the way is not for everyone. But let us all respect the different spiritualities charisms open to all the baptized people of God. We are all Catholic living working together for the greater glory of our magestic God. Give respect to Kiko Argello acknowledge the great good he has done in his life for the church.
ReplyDeleteDear anon, I agree with the praises of the founders of NCW. They have successfully created an awesome, structured reality inside the church. Perhaps I missed some parts of the discussion, but who called the founder an "evil heretic"? Based on what? I would like to see the reasoning of those who make these claims.
DeleteWe need to be careful not to mistake criticism with "attack on the faith of the church". I don't think anyone would make that attack on our faith from inside the church.
Some of the criticism may have been put forward with good intention. People are curious about the practices of Catholic communities that work. We should respond to that good intention whenever it is present. We have all the intellectual and spiritual resources of the NCW at our disposal to diffuse unjust criticism. So we should just make an honest effort and show involvement and understanding for these concerns. I am sure many readers would appreciate that.
Diana, the initiators of NCW have, indeed, tremendous respect all around in the Catholic word. This recognition is visibly demonstrated by the awards you list, praising the success of the initiators in many areas of church life. However, these awards should not be construed as responses to particular concerns. I feel we should be able to separate the two things from each other: praises on on side and questions on the other.
ReplyDeleteThe most relevant issues about sacraments, liturgy, church unity, integration within the parish community and orthodoxy of catechetical approach should all be addressed directly without assuming foul play from those who simply ask questions.
Thank you Zoltan 256pm Well said.
ReplyDeleteThe unquestionable and patent credential of Kiko is that he has NEVER answered nor reacted to his enemies in the way that Tim Rohr and Bishop Byrnes have done to the Catholics in Guam that have been helped by the Way.
ReplyDeleteI doubt that anyone in Guam ask themselves, what are Tim Rohr's Credential in order to deserve credibility on knowing what is Catholic and what is not???
Dear anon, what have been "done to the Catholics in Guam that have been helped by the Way"? I ask this question because we need to know what exactly we are talking about. You mention Rohr and Arch(!)bishop Byrnes in the same sentence in this regard. I don't think it is justified.
DeleteRohr is an irresponsible person who by his reckless impulses and actions inflicts damages on the local church and its parishes. Our Archbishop, on the contrary, uses his authority in a responsible and conscientious way, according to his high office, to promote peace and reconciliation inside the archdiocese. We need this healing as we need a piece of bread.
We have to be aware that a local (Arch)bishop has sole authority in managing the businesses of his diocese. This is why we have in the Statues of the NCW that our communities are at the service of the local (Arch)bishop. We have to submit to his decisions because he is our appointed leader. Archbishop Byrnes has an excellent track record of leadership from his previous assignments. Rather than vilifying him, we should listen to him acknowledging his good intentions.
Archbishop Byrnes ‘responsible’, ‘excellent track record’?
DeleteHere come the wolves attacking his flock and instead of interceding on behalf of the lambs, Byrnes grabs a stick and beats them… I don’t think I have to document this; facts speak louder than words.
I feel like the donkey from Balaam… “What have the Way done to you, that you have to beat us without impunity?” …then Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have made a fool of me! I wish I had a sword in my hand! I would kill you right now!” …but the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not YOUR donkey, which have rebuilt marriages, helped thousands renew their faith in the Catholic Church of Guam, nurture vocations to the priesthood, religious life and to marriage (NOT cohabitation)? Have the Way been in the habit of treating Byrnes this way?”
When will the Lord open the eyes of Byrnes? It is my prayer. Why fear those who have power over our bodies but not the Lord? I ask myself daily.
I sincerely have nothing personal against Bishop Byrnes, I know exactly how difficult it is to go against the mafia of this island. But we MUST encourage one another. I agree with all the saints that call the Popes to conversion when they were neglecting their duties. I am not denying that he is the authority… is anyone denying it? We are all obeying, even if it is burdensome and/or borderline unjust. What I find offensive and hypocritical is that the Catholic Church has no qualms telling a sterile couple that IVF is immoral, that if they have tried all the moral ways to help their chances to have a child and they can’t, that they MUST carry the cross and unite their sufferings to those of our Redeeming Lord. Well, it is about time that someone tells the Bishop the he must also carry HIS cross and LEAD his flock by example... I am not moralistically saying that the Bishop MUST ACT like a CHRISTIAN... but I am praying that God gives him the grace for him to act like one.
About his good intentions...
“The road to hell is paved with good intentions” Saint Bernard of Clairvaux
“The hostility of a civilization in which Christianity – and especially such a disfigured Christianity – is called to question on all sides… the weakening of intellectual defenses due to a teaching extremely poor in matters of doctrine; the modernist crisis, with its first epidemic of itching ears and PIOUSLY INTENDED ERRORS; … All this … build up, in the unconscious of a great many Christians, clerics and laymen, an enormous weight of frustration, disillusionment, repressed doubts, resentment, bitterness… For when FOOLISHNESS acquires such considerable dimensions among Christians, either it must be resorbed pretty quickly, or it will ultimately detach them from the Church. What FOOLISHNESS? Kneeling before the world.” By Jackes Maritain – “The Peasant of the Garonne” p.51-50
I am a sinner... if you call me on that, you do not vilify me, you call me to the truth and I will bless you for asking me to be better than I am in your intentions. I may not know how to say things in a politically correct way that do not come across as vilifying... but a spade is a spade in my book and in a sincere "adult" relationship all we owe each other is nothing but the truth without fear that the other is hurt by it (stress goes on adult).
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteI do not know if you have been keeping up with current events. I agree that The NCW should be obedient to Archbishop Byrnes because he is the Coadjutor Archbishop of Agana. The NCW has been obedient when he instructed us to celebrate the Mass in the church.
However, Anonymous 1:39 pm is correct. Archbishop Byrnes is afraid to go against the mafia of this island. He fears persecution. The Archdiocese is not controlled by the Archbishop. It is controlled by CCOG.
Dear Diana, I am truly trying to catch up with happenings that I read about in the news and in your blog. Regarding archbishop Byrnes' directives I think it is right to celebrate the Mass in the church building. It is a beautiful building that was designed and built to convey the beauty of our Lord and the beauty our faith in Him. We belong to the church as we belong to the parish. If the parish is dead, as someone told us at your blog, then we are also dead, because we are part of the parish.
DeleteWe should vilify neither our fellow parishioners not the legitimate leadership of our Catholic life on the island. What is more, it is not enough to be obedient, we also have to be cheerful that our local Pastor cares about us and our well-being as Catholics. He is the appointed leader of our archdiocese bringing to us and representing the spirit of the Lord Jesus through ecclesial, administrative and pastoral efforts. We should comply with his instructions without effort and without resistance. The circumstances are extremely challenging, even dangerous, but he keeps 100% control in church matters, as far as I can see. He is the sole authority in local decisions.
You mention some "mafia". I have never heard about any Catholic mafia operating on the island. Typically, mafia is in Italy where the NCW is flourishing. Who is exactly the mafia on Guam? I only see a handful jungle believers who try to wreak havoc. But they are no mafia in context of power, method and influence. They are in no position to persecute the Archbishop. How could they be? Archbishop Byrnes is not afraid of them. Why would he be?
When CCoG members tried to press Archbishop Hon, he shrugged them off. He demonstrated that no Archbishop has to fear from ad hoc pressure groups with a vicious anti-church agenda. Unfortunately, Archbishop Hon missed the opportunity to fight the CCoG's "predator bill" on time, even though it was already very clear what Rohr and Klitzkie wanted to do: created a predator mentality and a predator weapon against their own church!
In this omission Archbishop Hon was on the same page as NCW leadership. I was the only person who stood up against the bill at the public hearing. The situation of the Catholic Church would be different right now if this bill could have been modified and tailored by simple reason in August 2016.
Dear anon, Archbishop Byrnes is a well respected Catholic archbishop and an exemplary Christian leader on island. Please, bring up your facts, if you have any, to prove to the contrary. Otherwise your tirades are meaningless. What facts speak louder than words for you? Nobody is preventing you from talking up against in-vitro fertilization. Who would do that? I don't see your point. How is your frustration about IVF related to the Archbishop?
DeleteDear Zoltan,
DeleteI never said that it was wrong to celebrate in the church building. The building is not the same as the people. The Church is the people. It is an assembly of people. The building can be destroyed, but the Church cannot be destroyed.
Zoltan, from what I see, Archbishop Byrnes follows CCOG rather than God. CCOG told Archbishop Byrnes to get rid of Monsignor David. He called Monsignor David to resign in light of the current circumstances. Monsignor David resigned. So, we have a Bishop who would rather sacrifice his own priest to CCOG than stand together with him in the persecution.
Why not look at it this way, if Archbishop Apuron was accused of being influenced by NCW clergy because they held "powerful" positions in the church, do you not think that IF the NCW is allowed to continue and grow within the community under Archbishop Byrnes, one with a grievance against the NCW would believe that it is BECAUSE Msgr. David still held a "powerful" advisory position? By placing clergy whom CCOG trusts in "powerful" advisory positions, when Archbishop Byrnes ends up supporting the NCW, do you not think that it would help those who are against the NCW see that Archbishop Byrnes IS NOT under NCW influence but using his best judgment?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:37 pm,
DeleteHis best judgement as a bishop would be to stand beside his priests who did nothing wrong. You do not remove someone simply because they are walking in the Way. That is prejudice and discriminatory. As a shepherd, he should have guided the flock in teaching them the evils of prejudice. He did not stand against evil. He bent down to it.
Diana, Msgr David accepted the call to resign. Why?
DeleteTeaching the flock the evils of prejudice is also the responsibility of the parish priest and parents. At the lower level, do you not think it would be more effective for someone who is closer to those members to teach that lesson?
DeleteWhat do you want from Archbishop Brynes that you do not have now?
1. You are allowed to celebrate in the parish
2. Your communities have not been broken up
3. You are under review in order for him and all those who have doubts about you to have confidence in the NCW. Yes, you can tout that you have recognition from the Holy See and it's stupid and doesn't make sense to have a second review, but you forget that people have WEAKNESSES. You forget that there are many Thomases, many people need to see and poke Jesus' hands, feet, and side in order to believe.
4. You continue your work of evangelization outside of Guam without being stopped by the Archbishop.
What more do you want?
Keeping the seminary open would place all other properties at risk. If suits continue to pile up, where is the diocese going to get funds to pay those they lose AND operations if not by selling its most valuable assets first?
Dear Anonymous at 8:52 am,
DeleteArchbishop Byrnes’ action only caused more division among the clergy and endorsed discrimination and prejudice. He set the example.
Archbishop Byrnes put the NCW under review by someone who hates the Way rather than by someone who is neutral, so how do you think the review will turn out in the end???? It seems to me that the NCW is being set up to be removed. Also, the Archbishop cannot cease the evangelization outside of Guam, but he has stopped it here in Guam. He can talk all he wants about how he favors the new evangelization, but action speaks a lot louder than words.
I would investigate those lawsuits, but the Archdiocese isn’t doing that. They want to settle it without investigations.
DeleteAnon 9:18am: Well, who said the archdiocese wants to settle without investigations? The Archdiocese had not OFFICIAL stated that they will pay anyone who makes a claim of being abused.
DeleteSecondly, how can you investigate abuse that happened 40 years ago when the priest and witnesses are either dead or are highly likely to not remember the situation back then? Isn't that the whole point of trying to get the courts to declare the law unconstitutional?
Finally, the mediation process is stopped because parties supposedly can't decide on when payouts should be made. It is my hope that the reason they can't settle that is because the archdiocese WANTS to investigate these claims BEFORE paying them out.
To Diana, you are also prejudice in your belief that the review will turn out biased because someone who is not in the NCW conducted it. You have absolutely ZERO faith that by conducting the review things will turn out fine BECAUSE the NCW IS a CHARISM of the HOLY SPIRIT. You have ZERO hope that people who were once against it could now be open to it after having a slightly better understanding of it. Furthermore, you also believe that he will be lazy in his report and that Archbishop Byrnes would be so nonchalant about it as to agree WITHOUT praying over it first. How could he be so lazy in such affairs when it concerns thousands of members of his flock? Do you really think that Archbishop Byrnes does not care about what you are all doing and learning in your communities? If he didn't care, why would he continue with his vocation as PRIEST, BISHOP, and ARCHBISHOP? He is ENTRUSTED with the community God has given him. Do you really think he would have been tapped by the Pope himself IF he was so incompetent? If he was deemed incompetent by the Pope and still sent here, then tell me, what does that say about the Holy Father's concern for us?
"Archbishop Byrnes’ action only caused more division among the clergy and endorsed discrimination and prejudice. He set the example."
DeleteAs Zoltan pointed out, Msgr. David accepted the call to resign. Had he felt "discriminated against" do you not think he would have said something to Archbishop Byrnes? Otherwise, why not also blame Msgr. David for accepting to resign under those circumstances? By his actions, he too, is endorsing passive acceptance of discrimination and prejudice.
Dear Anonymous at 11:32 am,
DeleteThe whole point of settling out of court is to avoid litigation. The litigation process stopped because they could not agree whether to pay the alleged victims individually or globally.
The review will turn out bias if a person hates the Way. In the same Way, it will also be bias if it was a person who favors the Way. What you need is someone who is qualified and NEUTRAL. The courts do this all the time. They always try to get an impartial and objective jury to ensure a fair trial.....plain and simple.
Dear Anonymous at 11:56 am,
DeleteMonsignor David was told to resign by Archbishop Byrnes. Are you saying he should disobey?
How was Monsignor David endorsing the prejudice and discrimination when he was the TARGET of the prejudice and discrimination???
What is so ridiculous is that some people like Anon. 11:32 don't condemn CCOG's action as discrimination. CCOG demanded the removal of Mon. David cuz he walks in the Way. Diana is right on this one. Did Martin Luther King tell the blacks in the south not to vote in light of the current circumstances?
Delete"The whole point of settling out of court is to avoid litigation."
DeleteNo one is bound to mediation. If the archdiocese believes someone is making a malicious bogus claim, then it has every right to pursue action against that individual. Also, no other details of the mediation proceedings were released because they were held in a closed door meeting so we can't know for sure if an investigation must be conducted and evidence provided prior to settling the claims.
"The review will turn out bias if a person hates the Way. In the same Way, it will also be bias if it was a person who favors the Way. What you need is someone who is qualified and NEUTRAL. The courts do this all the time. They always try to get an impartial and objective jury to ensure a fair trial.....plain and simple."
Well that neutral party was already the Holy See. Perhaps the whole point of having a biased person conduct the review is because Archbishop Byrnes wants to understand where the "miscommunication" and "misunderstandings" come from in order to correct them.
You are so attached to your suspicions and worries that it seems that you have lost hope that the lawyers of the archdiocese, those working for the archdiocese, and even the archbishop himself are actually trying to do what's best for everyone.
Dear Anonymous at 3:12 pm,
DeleteThe mediation is for everyone who filed a lawsuit against the Archdiocese. That was in the news and Archbishop Byrnes also said that he wants all parties in the mediation process.
You stated: "Perhaps the whole point of having a biased person conduct the review is because Archbishop Byrnes wants to understand where the "miscommunication" and "misunderstandings" come from in order to correct them."
If that was the case, then why not have 2 bias people to review it. You already have 1 person biased against the Way. Then get 1 biased person for the Way. Why listen only to one side?
Dear anon, CCoG is adamant about causing more and more damage to the church. We see this in their their collaboration with the openly anti-Catholic SNAP and in their producing and promoting a flawed predator bill that is played out against the Catholic church.
DeleteArchbishop Byrnes, on the contrary, is adamant about easing the tensions and bringing peace to the church on Guam. As the leading Pastor of the archdiocese, his benevolent care extends to the spiritual well-being of all parishioners in or out of NCW. A pastoral decision should be viewed as conceding to outside pressure. It should be viewed, first of all, as a benevolent act of good-will.
If we are to criticize a decision, we should do that openly before accepting. It is not disobedience, it is rather making a free choice of expounding critical stand point. However, once we accept the decision, we also accept the consequences of that decision. How can you continue condemning something that you had agreed with by acceptance?
"Monsignor David was told to resign by Archbishop Byrnes. Are you saying he should disobey?
DeleteHow was Monsignor David endorsing the prejudice and discrimination when he was the TARGET of the prejudice and discrimination???"
If Msgr. David saw corruption in the decision and did not say or do anything about it, he is endorsing the action by his silence. Meaning, for all those who feel like they are being discriminated agaist, he set an example for how they should behave.
Think of the holocaust and those who passively accepted the injustice against them. Millions of people died because of passive acceptance. Thinking, "It's OK to be treated or allow others to be treated this way."
Dear Diana, I would like to know why do you say Steve Martinez hates the Way.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:32 pm,
DeleteI will remind you that Jesus was a target of hate by the Pharisee, and he said nothing. He did not defend himself. Was Christ endorsing their hate?
Then what was Msgr. David endorsing by agreeing to resign?
DeleteYou are upset that Archbishop asked Msgr. David to resign because you believe that CCOG is influencing his decisions. Is that not the same complaint CCOG had about the NCW when Archbishop Apuron made decisions that seemed to be in favor of the NCW?
Delete"If that was the case, then why not have 2 bias people to review it. You already have 1 person biased against the Way. Then get 1 biased person for the Way. Why listen only to one side?"
DeleteThat other side was the Holy See.
Dear Anonymous at 3:48 pm,
DeleteHe was being humble.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteDeacon Steve Martinez was a member and officer of CCOG. He was one of the officers when this press release was made to the media:
“We have read news reports of problems with the finances of the archdiocese; about mistreatment of members of the clergy, and how members of the neo-catechumenal way movement at the invitation of the archbishop have worked its way into the affairs of the archdiocese and some parishes throughout Guam.”
Dear Anonymous at 3:52 pm,
DeleteActually, I am saying it is unfair. The evidence is there that the Archbishop is being influenced by CCOG. He got caught when one of the reporters asked if he was pressured. As for Archbishop Apuron, where is the evidence that he was influenced by the NCW? You only have Rohr saying it, but produced no evidence of it.
At Anonymous 3:56 pm. The Holy See is not reviewing the Directory. They were the ones who approved of it. Because they already approved it, Deacon Steve should simply say that there are no errors in it.
Dear Diana, where is the hatred? I don't see hatred in these sentences. Do you? Factual statements/ criticism should never be mistaken as hatred. A benevolent intent of correction may come in the form of criticism. When you say someone has hatred, you make a judgment against that person.
Delete"Because they already approved it, Deacon Steve should simply say that there are no errors in it."
DeleteI thought you were against blind obedience.
Dear Anonymous at 4:58 pm,
DeleteWhat is there to disobey in the Directory when it is not telling you to steal, kill, or commit adultery???
Dear Zoltan,
On one hand, you condemned CCOG for their hatred against the Way, but you appear to praise Deacon Steve Martinez and ignore the fact that he was part of CCOG. You stated that when I say someone has hatred, I make a judgment against that person. I will remind you my brother that this is what you stated about Tim Rohr and CCOG:
“Rohr is an irresponsible person who by his reckless impulses and actions inflicts damages on the local Church and its parishes.”
You also called SNAP and CCOG “anti-Catholic. The issue that we are facing is hate. That is the sin that is dividing us. It is no secret that the jungle wants the NCW out of every parish and out of the Archdiocese. It is no secret that when an RMS priest was assigned to a parish, the junglefolks leave the parish. It is no secret that the junglefolks do not want an RMS priest in their parish. So, if that is not “hate” then what is?
@Anon. 3:52 pm, there were only 2 decisions that AB Apuron made. He removed Fr. Paul for disobedience and Mon. James for financial mismanagement. He didn’t persecute other priests not walking in the Way. AB Hon targeted all RMS priests. And Byrnes is following in Hon’s footsteps.
DeleteDuring Apuron’s time, the other priests complained cuz they were jealous and wanted Apuron’s attention. They complained that he travels with the RMS priests,he has dinner with RMS priests, he spends too much time e with his community. What they wanted was Apuron to travel with them, have dinner with them, and spend time with them.
DeleteWhen Hon took over, he removed the priests walking in the Way. He restored Fr. Paul and Mon. James to higher positions. Even Fr. was given a higher position. Did you hear the RMS complain about Hon not having dinner with them, not traveling with them, not paying attention to them? Of course not. Instead, they noticed their persecution and rejoiced in it.
"It is no secret that the jungle wants the NCW out of every parish and out of the Archdiocese. It is no secret that when an RMS priest was assigned to a parish, the junglefolks leave the parish. It is no secret that the junglefolks do not want an RMS priest in their parish. So, if that is not “hate” then what is?"
DeleteAnd what has Archbishop Byrnes done in the face of that hate?
1. Allowed the NCW to continue to celebrate using parish facilities
2. Allowed priests currently pastors of various parishes to STILL SERVE AS PASTORS OF THOSE PARISHES, with the exception of Fr. Edivaldo and Fr. Adrian PROBABLY because they REFUSED to OBEY the ordinary assigned to Guam at the time
3. Had someone who supposedly is against the NCW see for himself if there were any credible allegations against the NCW and report back his findings.
Again, if you are SO CONFIDENT that there is NOTHING WRONG then why are you complaining about a biased person doing the review when even the Archbishop can make decisions for himself, review the information for himself, and gather more information if there is a credible claim AGAINST the directory for himself. Why on earth would he simply take Deacon Steve's words of accusations, if any, WITHOUT verifying for HIMSELF if they are true and asking for clarification BEFORE making a final decision?
And finally, as Anon at 7:19 puts it, you don't see the NCW priests complaining about being ignored by the Archbishop. So why are YOU?
Are they not YOUR examples? Shouldn't you and the rest of us be following their example if they are as holy as you seem to imply they are? Or are you saying that now ALL priests shouldn't be trusted or followed because none of them can stand up against the injustices being committed by the Archbishop.
Hmm...that sounds a lot like what CCOG said about Archbishop Apuron and the RMS/NCW priests and what they called the rest of the church to do.
Dear Anonymous at 8:51 pm,
DeleteActually, he has...
1. Stopped the Way from forming more communities.
2. Stopped the Way from evangelizing in Guam, and
3. Appointed a deacon who hates the Way to be the delegate AFTER the jungle intimidated Father Dan to resign. It seems to me that the jungle did not have any confidence in a neutral person.
The NCW is confident that the Directory is in order. It is the jungle that will manipulate the results just like they did with the report on the seminary.
The RMS priests are not lonely that they need the attention of the archbishop. But discrimination and hate is wrong no matter how you try to sugar coat.
Furthermore, this is a discussion board where one is free to express that hate and discrimination are wrong. Archbishop Apuron removed two priests for a wrong-doing. Monsignor David was asked to resign because he was walking in the Way. Walking in the Way is not a wrong-doing.
JW has always tried to intimidate those who support Apuron. When they go against the bill to lift the statutes of limitations, JW accused them of supporting child molesters when all they've been doing was expressing their opinions on why the bill shouldn't be passed. Now, when we denounce CCOG's demand for removing Monsignor David, they call it a complaint when the right thing to do was to denounce it as discriminatory. There was nothing discriminatory in what Apuron did to Fr. Paul and Mon. Benavente. JW lied when they blamed the Way for the removal of Fr. Paul. It was because of Lastimosa. The Way has no confidence when a junglefolk like Deacon Martinez is in charge. Diana has shown time and time again how Rohr changes his stories.
DeleteWe should realize and state very clearly that JW and CCoG, along the instructions of SNAP have a political agenda. This was manifested by creating a flawed "predator bill" and pushing through the legislature and the governor's office. This revealed their political agenda. They use political connections and skills to undermine peace in the Catholic church to advance their narrow political agenda.
DeleteArchbishop Byrnes has a pastoral agenda. he is the appointed Pastor of the diocese, so he is in change of rescuing the parishes. It as his job the lead the flock to and on the pastures of good Catholic life and true Catholic teaching. He has to mediate between different church groups to carve out common ground and mutual understanding in order to reconcile and make peace. Otherwise we can't be fruitful producing good fruit. Our Archbishop cannot listen to one side only, he has to listen to all his constituents.
The NCW has an evangelization agenda. We are not necessarily talking about going out and baptizing the pagans, but more like about focusing inside and forming groups in existing Catholic parishes. NCW also maintains communities with strong internal cohesion in order to support, spiritually and financially, evangelization efforts of its missionaries. This requires a lot of zeal and some fanaticism in order to make the mechanism work.
There is not going to be peace if the different groups push only for their own agendas. We see political, pastoral and evangelization agendas that require a lot of skill and mutual trust to reconcile with each other. The archdiocese will be torn apart if groups have no respect and understanding to each other's agendas. Our Archbishop plays a critical role in creating and maintaining an unbiased climate where the discourse may continue and common ground may be found. We should support him in his endeavor.
How is this "discrimination" when the letter issued to Msgr David and three others was states it was "insubordination":
Delete"As discussed, your membership on the presbyteral council is terminated because of insubordination," Byrnes wrote in his letter, a copy of which was obtained Tuesday. "Specifically, by writing directly to his Eminence Fernando Cardinal Filoni on June 27, 2017, instead of properly directing your concerns to me, you have defied my leadership and betrayed my trust." - Guam PDN
They were appointed members of the council on June 11. Two weeks later, they write to Cardinal Filoni about the closing of the seminary INSTEAD of discussing it with him.
The fact that ALL of them are members of the NCW is irrelevant.
Or are you claiming that the reason Archbishop Byrnes gave to all four priests verbally and in writing were a lie? That the TRUTH is that it was because all four of them are members of the NCW.
Dear Anonymous at 11:23 am,
DeleteThat was not what I was referring to. I was referring to the time Archbishop Byrnes asked Monsignor David to resigned because CCOG demanded his resignation. According to the PDN:
"Quitugua had been on the advisory team less than two weeks, after being appointed June 7, and his removal comes after lobbying by the Concerned Catholics of Guam, which has expressed concerns about Quitugua allegedly abusing his authority as vicar general under Archbishop Anthony Apuron.
"The Archdiocese can confirm that Monsignor David C. Quitugua is no longer a member of the College of Consultors. He was asked to resign in light of the current climate in the Church on the island. It was effective June 18, 2017," the archdiocese stated."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.guampdn.com/amp/407859001
Ok, I concede to the fact that he was discriminated against. But you forgot to mention that as a result of being asked to resign Msgr. James voluntary submitted his resignation as delegate to the coadjutor for "church patrimony" shortly after, probably for the same reasons. If you recall, he was accused of giving out properties to family members and mismanaging funds. The NCW didn't have to act like CCOG for him to get the message.
DeleteCan you acknowledge the good intention or do you see it as taking advantage of the situation?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.guampdn.com/amp/414605001
It seems now that because of the discrimination of Msgr. David, he and the other three fired members of the presbyter council felt that they could not trust Archbishop Byrnes and thus had to go behind his back to be heard.
However, isn't that immoral? The end does not justify the mean.
Dear Anonymous at 9:31 pm,
DeleteMonsignor David was asked to resign by his bishop in light of the current climate. The NCW never asked or demanded Monsignor James to resigned. He made that decision on his own.
See my post in the following weblink:
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2017/08/my-response-to-5ee445.html?m=0
Thank you anon 4:23AM.....Well said...
ReplyDeleteAgain, "well said Zoltan" at 1121am
ReplyDeleteDivision injustice discrimination prejudice intensify under Byrnes.
ReplyDeleteDear anon, blanket accusations are meaningless and disrespectful. Please, have respect for our appointed Pastor by elaborating.
DeleteZoltan. Division injustice discrimination prejudice grow at alarming rate daily under Byrnes.
ReplyDeletePlease, elaborate!
DeleteZoltan, do you believe that Apuron is guilty or not? What is your stance?
DeleteDear anon, who am I to judge my brother? It is neither your job nor my job. We have a Vatican tribunal that has completed its deliberations.
DeleteMaking blanket accusations against the Archbishop of record is neither smart nor useful. He is only trying to do his job. So please, be specific. Vilifying Archbishop Byrnes would only turn the faithful against you.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteArchbishop Apuron is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The canonical trial will determine his innocence or guilt. But until the results are made public, he is presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Archbishop Apuron is innocent until Judges sign documents of innocence guilt lack of evidence. Documents are unsigned as of 2pm today.
DeleteUntil the results made public he is presumed innocent.
5:53 how do you know?
DeleteMistreatment of members of the clergy major concern at present. Clergy suffer in silence at injustices of this administration. Injustice injustice injustice!
ReplyDeleteI'm curious about what would happen if Archbishop Apuron returned before the end of 2017. If he would support the decisions of Archbishop Byrnes or completely undo them.
ReplyDeleteArchbishop Apuron remains Archbishop of Agana Guam. Until such a time Pope Francis appoints a new bishop he is the authority. Archbishop Byrnes is here to assist Archbishop Apuron. Given he has closed down a seminary of Archdiocese Archbishop Apuron must re evaluate all decisions on his return.
ReplyDeleteHow can the Pope appoint a new Bishop if Byrnes is the Coadjutor Archbishop? How can your statements be verified when we don't even know the verdict of the canonical trial?
DeleteApuron cannot exercise authority. At all.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:19 pm,
DeleteArchbishop Apuron still has his title "Archbishop of Agana." That still has not changed. The pope has the authority to remove Byrnes as Coadjutor Archbishop and appoint someone else if he wants.
Archbishop Apuron has stated in the Vatican Insider that he would like to return as Archbishop of Agana and have an auxiliary bishop beside him to assist him.
Archbishop Hebda coadjutor Archbishop of Newark NJ. He became Archbishop of Saint Paul and Minneapolis. Archbishop Byrnes assigned back to mainland. Who knows!
ReplyDeleteZoltan. To reconcile groups needs trust. Who do you trust? Byrnes is owned by ccog.
ReplyDeleteAnd apurun is owned by the NCW. So is it only good when everything FAVORS the NCW?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:47 am,
DeleteHe was never owned by the NCW. You can tell he was never owned by the NCW because he never targeted priests who did not walk in the Way. There were only 2 priests he removed, and his decision to remove them had nothing to do with the Way. The local here in Guam stayed in their local parishes for more than 5 years. HE never touched them.
Ummm, he actually placed a lot of NCW priests in positions where they had no experience in and we're just newly ordained priests. They were all trying to change the parishes to follow the NCW.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:21 am,
DeleteCan you be more specific and give an example?
Sure here isan example. Påle' Mike asked to be relocated to Barrigada to be near his sick parents but was not given the opportunity, but Adrian was afforded the opportunity. This is an example of give a neo church a neo pastor.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:25 am,
DeleteIs that It? Really? Toto is not far from Barrigada.
Diana, look at jacutan who was in Agana or even Waldo who was spokesperson for a diocese with no experience. To me, they were fresh off the boat. That's what I call one sided. Other priests had more experience then them but brother tony places these neos there. Go figure!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:47 pm,
DeleteHow do expect them to get experience?The only way for them to get experience is to put them there. Father Edivaldo replaced Father Santiago at the parish, who was an RMS priest.
You asked for examples and I gave examples. They could've gained experience by training and NOT being placed in a position right off the bat. Even in every workplace, they have apprentices or senior wingmen/women that train and prepare people with no experience or even very little education in these fields PRIOR to them applying for these positions.
DeleteYour reasoning of how do I expect them to gain any experience is lame at best. You don't throw someone into a pack of wolves and tell them to fend themselves without at least gaining some sort of training, do you?
Dear Anonymous at 3:40 pm,
DeleteI have heard them preach, and I find nothing wrong with their preaching. I will remind you that in the parishes where you think the priests are more experience, you have people leaving early before the final blessings. So, if these more experienced priests were so great, why are there people leaving the parishes early?
They leave parish mass early for two reasons.
Delete1. little knowledge of faith.
2. So boared with parish mass most want out fast.
ReplyDeleteNCW priests are diocesan priests with a missionary spirit. They are ordained for the universial church to go out evangelize. They think beyond geographical locations to serve the church throughout the world. Seminarians Priests gave up their home land to travel to bring Christ to far away places in need of hearing the Good News. They deserve our support prayers.
At the locale's expense which is what brother tony kept asking the locals to donate to prior to his departure. That's fact.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:41 pm,
DeleteMRS is self sustaining; therefore it is not at your expense.
Maybe only RECENTLY self sustaining but since the start of RMS here in Guam, it was widely preached every Sunday to DONATE to fund these RMS students. Even you can't deny the FACT, Diana.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:35 pm,
DeleteLet us be honest here. The parishes never announced to donate to RMS. They asked to donate to the Annual Appeal as usual.
Have you honestly looked at the breakdown on the annual appeal? There is a significant portion which went to the RMS. So pls get your facts in order.
DeleteThe primary complaints of the RMS priests:
Delete1. Poor formation
2. Supporting their tuition and expenses
3. Going on mission and leaving the diocese
It's funny how in the end, when they leave, people complain about them leaving after having supported their formation and expenses. In other words, they actually wanted them to stay despite supposedly being poorly formed and "expensive" to support.
Dear Anonymous at 7:04 pm,
DeleteYes. In 2016, only 5% of the Archdiocesan Annual Appeal went to RMS. Since September 2016, RMS received absolutely nothing from the Archdiocese, but has been able to sustain itself for over a year.
Dear Anonymous at 7:28 pm.
DeleteVery true.
Who's complained of them leaving? I believe the only complaint is that parishioners have funded these RMS priests yet none are here. It's like buying a car and never seeing how it operates because it left the island like the cars from prestige auto that went to China.
DeleteBut wait cause even with NO EXPERIENCE, Diana said they should just go out with no guidance in order for these priests to gain experience.
🙄🤔 something is wrong with that thought.
Diana, in ALL THE YEARS there were catholic charities appeals, every year there was funding from the archdiocese for the RMS. So how can you say it was just in 2016? Even at that, it was only because the archdiocese decided to STOP funding RMS priests.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:34 pm,
DeleteI never said only in 2016. I said only 5% in 2016.
Yes you referenced 2016 but you failed to mention all the other years which guam parishioners HAVE supported the RMS financially for quite a long time until all these issues with RMS was exposed. Even at that, look at how easy one can interpret the FACTS, this was a very good example and COMPLETE facts need to be shared rather then hidden as you only mentioned one year and since that ONE YEAR, RMS has had to fend for itself vs. the many years of help from the parishioners of the archdiocese of Agana through the charities appeals. Even in the one year, RMS has closed down. Students have to figure out where to go and who will accept them and who will fund their education. Certainly the people of Guam refuse to continue to fund them.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 4:18 am,
DeleteI mentioned one year only as an example, because all the other years are pretty much the same. The Archdiocese only pays about 5%. The bulk of the money did not come from you. Even after those many years, RMS still carried the bulk of the payments while the Archdiocese paid only about 5%.
I do not think the students will have any problems. Rome can even take them just as they did the seminarians when they closed down Japan. And yes, this time Guam will fund them 100%. You mean....you refuse to fund them. Speak only for yourself. You do not represent the people of Guam.
As usual, it's always about the MONEY!!!
Delete"But wait cause even with NO EXPERIENCE, Diana said they should just go out with no guidance in order for these priests to gain experience."
DeleteDon't priests gain experience when they are deacons? You can't claim they have no experience.
From USCCB website FAQs on Deacons
What are these "various ministries" of the Deacon?
All ordained ministers in the Church are called to functions of Word, Sacrament,and Charity, but bishops, presbyters and deacons exercise these functions in various ways. As ministers of Word, deacons proclaim the Gospel, preach, and teach in the name of the Church. As ministers of Sacrament,deacons baptize,lead the faithful in prayer, witness marriages,
and conduct wake and funeral services As ministers of Charity, deacons are leaders in identifying the needs of others, then marshaling the Church's
resources to meet those needs. Deacons are also dedicated to eliminating the injustices or inequities that cause such needs. But no matter what specific functions a deacon performs, they flow from his sacramental
identity. In other words, it is not only WHAT a deacon does,but WHO a
deacon is,that is important.
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/vocations/diaconate/faqs.cfm
Dear Anonymous at 3:22 pm,
DeleteYou were the one who claimed they.had no experience. The RMS priests had a lot of experience being in a Mass when they were seminarians and deacons. When they became priests for the first time, they always have their first Mass with other priests helping them. I asked the question, 'how can they gain experience if YOU don't allow them to do Mass." Technically, you Do not want the RMS priest in your parish because you feel they are not qualified. Yet, at the same time, you complain about the RMS priest in mission in other countries rather than serving in your parish. Make up your mind.
Hi Diana,
DeleteI'm anon at 3:22pm. I was addressing anon at October 30, 2017 at 9:32 PM.
Anon at 9:32pm:
DeleteI am not denouncing your feelings of scandal after supporting a group you do not agree with, but continuing to hold onto your anger and frustration is not good for your soul.
How do you think you can move forward?
Oops! My apologies. I got the wrong anonymous.
Delete
ReplyDeleteSeminary supported by overseas donations. Therefore it is not at your expense.