First of all, it helps to listen and to have an open mind. Jumping to conclusions does not help the situation. One should examine all sides and look at things from the context of the situation.AnonymousJuly 25, 2017 at 9:26 PMDear Diana, how would I know? I only tried to reconcile the statements of Archbishops Hon and Apuron. The instruction may have came from the Holy See but not as a letter from Pope Francis. How do you reconcile them? Thanks.
It was news to everyone when Archbishop Hon announced to the media that Archbishop Apuron disobeyed the Pope when he was instructed to rescind the Deed Restriction. This announcement came on August 19, 2016. Father Pius gave an answer to Archbishop Hon's accusation. According to KUAM news:
While Archbishop Hon has previously stated Apuron did not follow a directive given by the Holy See a year ago to rescind and annul the deed restriction, Father Pius states, "The Pope never gave any directive. It was a congregation of the Holy See, which gave this indication and, as I said, an archbishop answers only to the Holy Father."Therefore, it seems that there was a misunderstanding between Archbishop Hon and Archbishop Apuron. All bishops answer only to the Pope, the Holy Father. An instruction was given to Archbishop Apuron to rescind the Deed Restriction, but this instruction did not come from the Pope. It came from a congregation of the Holy See. A congregation of the Holy See is not the Pope. Because it came from a congregation, Archbishop Apuron had the choice to either follow it or not. Archbishop Hon, on the other hand, was mistaken into thinking that all instructions coming from a congregation is an instruction coming from the Pope. That is an error.
Likewise, he also made another error into thinking that he had the authority to rescind the Deed Restriction. On August 18, 2016, he reported in a press release that he has rescinded and annulled the Declaration of Deed Restriction, not realizing that he overstepped his authority. Father Pius, who was the Rector of RMS at that time, came out and announced through the media that only the Archbishop of Agana or his successor have the sole authority to rescind the Declaration of Deed Restriction.
I am certain that after reviewing the necessary documents, Archbishop Hon realized his error. There is a document stating that the Redemptoris Mater Seminary is a corporation sole (similar to the Archdiocese of Agana). and that the corporate sole is the Archbishop of Agana. That document is not found in the Department of Rev. and Tax as Tim Rohr assumed. It is a document that came from the Vatican.
After realizing his error, Archbishop Hon then called upon the NCW to rescind the Deed Restriction and requested the RMS Board of Directors and Board of Guarantors to sign the papers drawn up by CCOG. However, this again is another error. The NCW, the RMS Board of Directors and the Board of Guarantors also do not have the authority to rescind the Deed Restriction nor do they have the authority to sign any papers giving up the use of the property. Because RMS is a corporation sole, only the Archbishop of Agana or his successor have the sole authority to rescind the Deed Restriction. Coadjutor Archbishop Michael Byrnes was the only one who can rescind it. Notice that the NCW, the RMS Board of Directors and Board of Guarantors did not dispute Coadjutor Archbishop Byrnes? The dispute was only with Archbishop Hon because he never held the title Archbishop of Agana nor was he the successor of the Archbishop of Agana.
Archbishop Hon has publicly stated that the seminary belongs to the Archdiocese of Agana. Archbishop Hon stated to KUAM news:
"The Archdiocese of Agana owns that property. No doubt of it...."He said this in the Jesse Lujan talk show and to KUAM, but CCOG refused to listen. Instead, they criticized Archbishop Hon. CCOG believed that the Declaration of Deed Restriction transferred the seminary to RMS, which is false. They got this false information from Tim Rohr, and they chose to believe Tim Rohr over Archbishop Apuron, Archbishop Hon, Father Pius, and Father Jeff San Nicolas who all stated that the seminary is owned by the Archdiocese of Agana. The Declaration of Deed Restriction is not a deed as the jungle claimed. It is a declaration just as the document itself stated. The purpose of the Deed Restriction was to protect the intent of the donor and to protect the seminary from being sold. The 2 million dollars donation came with certain stipulations, which Archbishop Apuron intended to protect.
Dear Diana, please do not forget, that
ReplyDeletea. instruction came as early as in 2015 to rescind the deed restriction;
b. the instruction came from the Holy See;
c. Apuron refused to follow on the instruction;
d. the concern was about the legal right to use church property indefinitely;
e. nobody talked about the ownership of the RMS;
f. Apuron could have rescinded the deed restriction before he was suspended, but he failed to do so!
A congregation of the Holy See is representing the Holy See in canonical matters.
Dear Anonymous at 3:06 pm,
DeleteA bishop is responsible to his own Diocese. He can listen to the advice of the congregation, but ultimately he makes the decision because he is responsible to his Diocese.
Diana, who are you with in your diocese if you are against the Holy See?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:52 am,
DeleteWho said anything about being against the Holy See? I said a Bishop can listen to the advice of the CONGREGATION, but ultimately he makes the decision because he is responsible for his Diocese. According to canon law:
Can. 381 §1 In the diocese entrusted to his care, the diocesan Bishop has all the ordinary, proper and immediate power required for the exercise of his pastoral office, except in those matters which the law or a decree of the Supreme Pontiff reserves to the supreme or to some other ecclesiastical authority.
Anon. 2:52, the problem is that you have selective sight. You see the words "Holy See" and can't see the word "congregation" in front of it. That's the same with JW. They see the word "deed restriction" but can't see the word "declaration" in front of it. That's the reason they thought the seminary was given away when it fact, it was never given away. JW can't read whole sentences and phrases.
DeleteThe Holy See is not a person thus cannot make a demand. Especially not on a bishop.
DeleteThe Holy See is an ultimate church authority. It is bigger than the Pope!
DeleteDiana, you stated: "Where is the letter? Does Archbishop Hon have the letter from the Pope?"
ReplyDeletehttp://neocatechemunal.blogspot.hu/2017/07/discrediting-archbishop-apuron.html
DianaJuly 25, 2017 at 7:52 AM
Why do you ask this question if you knew the answer. Now, your OP states "It came from a congregation of the Holy See." If you knew this, then why did not you tell me in our conversation at the previous post?
You also stated: "According to Archbishop Apuron, Hon was the only one who told him to rescind the Deed restriction in 2015."
This is in contradiction with the OP's statement that "It came from a congregation of the Holy See." Was it Hon then or a congregation of the Holy See? How do you explain the contradiction?
You repeated here: "That was when he [Hon] suggested to Archbishop Apuron to rescind the deed restriction. That came only from Archbishop Hon."
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.hu/2017/07/discrediting-archbishop-apuron.html
DianaJuly 25, 2017 at 5:27 PM
How could it come from Archbishop Hon only? If it came from a congregation of the Holy See, then it an evidence to the contrary! Did you try to trick me?
In canonical matters a congregation of the Holy See is representing the Holy See. In fact, the Holy See means not the Pope only but the Pope and the Vatican congregations. Any entity of the Holy See represents the whole Holy See.
As Wikipedia explains:
The Holy See, also referred to as the See of Rome, is the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Catholic Church in Rome. (...) It is viewed as analogous to a state while administered by the Roman Curia (...) and various dicasteries, comparable to ministries and executive departments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See
This is where the instruction (and not "indignation" as Fr. Pious states) came from to rescind the deed restriction for the Yona seminary property!
To clear up this controversy you should be forthcoming to share what you know. It is not about the jungle, CCOG or Rohr. It is for those truly concerned Catholics who do not take sides between two camps who fight for dominance. We respect our church leaders, Archbishops Byrnes and Hon, Pope Francis, etc., we believe and trust them and look for them for guidance under the present bitter division.
Dear Anonymous at 3:38 pm,
DeleteIt was in the news. I asked you if he had a letter from the Pope because from the news I remember he had a letter from the congregation. And yes, Archbishop Hon is from that congregation. You, on the other hand, said he did not have any letter. Then later, you said he had a letter. You could not make up your mind. Obviously, you do not read the news.
All Bishops take orders from the Pope and the Pope alone. Why? Because he swore obedience to the Pope. If it comes from the Pope, Pope Francis will make certain that there is no doubt the instruction came from him. This was why Archbishop Apuron was surprised. He never received anything from Pope Francis regarding the Deed Restriction.
Personally, I believe that it was in very poor taste and unbecoming of a bishop to badmouth a brother bishop to the media. This issue should have been settled between the two of them. By going to the media, Archbishop Hon was sending a bad message to the flock. By showing no respect to a brother Bishop, he has taught the flock to disrespect a Bishop. As a result of his example, some of the junglefolks started calling for Hon to go home. That should not come as a surprise to Archbishop Hon when the jungle told him to get out of Guam and go home. He set the example.
To clear up the controversy means not to jump to conclusions and to listen to all sides. When you first came into my blog, you were implying that I was dishonest without even listening to what so I had to say.
Dear Diana, I am sorry if I caused ambiguity. Where would I know if there was a letter or not? I only repeated what you quoted from Archbishop Apuron. Is it true that he did not receive any letter of instruction?
DeleteI did not jump any conclusion. I am focusing on the contradictions among the interviews, reports and testimonies we had read in the news. What is for sure is that there was a window of opportunity for Apuron to act in 2015 and 2016 that he had missed.
Dear Anonymous at 6:23 pm,
DeleteArchbishop Apuron acted in what he thought was best. The Deed Restriction was placed to protect the intent of the donor and to prevent the seminary from being sold. Well now that the Deed Restriction is gone, what opportunity do you see? Did it heal the division?
Look now at what happen when the deed restriction is gone. The seminary is currently in the process of being sold, and the donor's intent has been jeopardized. This was what Archbishop Apuron was trying to prevent. If that Deed Restriction was still in place, at least we would have the seminary and enough property to start building parishes after everything is taken from the lawsuit. With the Deed Restriction gone, there is nothing left to retain.
There will be nothing left. This is the legacy the Junglewatch Nation left the innocent parishioners. They claimed that they will rebuild the Church; yet, they took the only property big enough for the Church to rebuild and put it up for sale to foreign investors. In addition to that, Rohr admitted that the land donated by families to the Archdiocese does not matter and should be sold regardless of the donors' intent. So, how does he expect these parishioners to rebuild after admitting that?
Anonymous says that he doesn't read the jungle blog, but his comments come from the jungle.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:01 pm,
DeleteI agree. I recognize some comments from Tim Rohr. When he said "What is for sure is that there was a window of opportunity for Apuron to act in 2015 and 2016 that he had missed", I recognize that comment coming for Rohr.
"Personally, I believe that it was in very poor taste and unbecoming of a bishop to badmouth a brother bishop to the media."
DeleteLike when Apuron questioned the credentials of Cardinal Arinze, then prefect of a congregation of the Holy See?
Dear Anonymous at 11:12 am,
DeleteActually, he was disagreeing with the cardinal on how the Eucharist in the Way should be celebrated. The problem is that some people have trouble understanding the difference between disagree and disobey. The two are not the same at all. A priest can disagree with his bishop, but he should not disobey.
Cardinal Arinze talked for Pope Benedict. Pope Benedict confirmed that what the Cardinal said reflected the intent of the Holy See.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:10 pm,
DeleteYes, the Pope made sure that his message was conveyed through Cardinal Arinze. The letter that Archbishop Apuron had had no conveyance from the Pope because he came from a congregation of the Holy See.
Diana, the Arinze letter came from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.
Delete"I am sure," Pope Benedict said about the instructions in the letter, "that you will attentively observe these norms, which are based on liturgical texts approved by the Church. By faithful adherence to all Church directives, you will render your apostolate even more effective, in harmony and full communion with the Pope and the pastors of dioceses."
This is how one should look at a letter from the Holy See.
Dear Anonymous at 5:27 pm,
DeleteArinze's letter was very clear that it came from the Pope through him because this is what it stated:
"I am to inform you of the Holy Father’s decisions."
If the letter did not come with something like the above, then it did not come from the Pope. In other words, if the letter stated, "The congregation of the Evangelizations of Peoples recommends that you follow the following guidelines," then it did not come from the Pope.
Diana, your information is incorrect. The Arinze letter did not come from Pope Benedict.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:42 pm,
DeletePlease read my comment. I said, it came from the Pope through Arinze. In other words, Arinze was the messenger.
Bingo. Diana! The same way the Holy See instructed Apuron through a congregation to rescind the deed restriction. He should have heeded that letter!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:51 pm,
DeleteThis only goes to show that you did not read the examples I gave in my comment at 5:27 pm. Please read my examples.
I don't think AB Byrnes was fully aware of what he was doing when he removed the deed restriction. It almost seems like he was manipulated into removing it. That's what I think.
ReplyDeleteI assure you, dear anon, AB Byrnes researched the situation before he came to Guam and he was fully, 100% aware what he was doing when he removed the deed restriction. He has a consistent and systematic policy framework to clean up the mess we have in the archdiocese right now. It is a 10-years plan that needs to be accomplished until normal business for the Archdiocese of Agana can be declared.
DeleteNormal business will mean, among others, more faith in Jesus Christ with less number of missionaries.
Dear Anonymous at 8:37 am,
Delete"More faith in Jesus Christ with less number of missionaries,"
That makes no sense. One reason why there are less Traditional Latin Mass Catholics is because they do not evangelize. Christ instructed us to spread the Gospels. That requires missionaries.
Their might not be a1962 traditional Latin Mass anymore because I just saw it that the pope might get rid of the 2007 decree for asking the bishop to allow it
DeleteDiana, missionary work is overemphasized in NCW circles. It is done with a focus on quantity rather than on quality. This means mission is exaggerated but produces shallow faith. Forcing extensive growth is not matched with intensive deepening of personal faith and knowledge. There is an increasing greed to extend more and more RMS for NCW purposes. Everything is about numbers. We saw it on Guam.
DeleteShallow faith erodes trust in the sacraments and holy mass. You chat about your faith during mass but this does not serve the purpose of deepening your faith in Jesus. The psychological effects of group dynamics take over to produce uniformity. Individuality is eradicated. Your personal relation to Jesus suffers. Greed will always lead you away from salvation. Producing numbers is not enough. Jesus wants you to look at Him!
Please go and look up "traditional catholics," to learn about some of the dangers/tempations such catholics can fall into. Maybe you'll actually learn something and respect how these "traditionalists" choose to live out their faith.
DeleteDiana, Jesus is also talking about the good seed. Your seed is not rooted in rich soil which is the truthful teaching of the Holy See and the Catholic Church.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:41 pm,
DeleteI will remind you that what you consider bad seed is supported by the Holy See. It was supported by four Popes, including Pope Francis.
Diana, approval by Vatican means nothing. It only means an opportunity that you still have to live up to. The Popes may have seen this opportunity, but they have never supported your deviations. The NCW's disdain for the Holy See betrays a bad attitude that cannot come from a good seed.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:49 pm,
DeleteOn the contrary. Approval from the Vatican is everything. YOUR disapproval means nothing.
I was wondering when is byrnes is going to recognize what this is all about its about money because even David lujan said to the whole world that it's about money money money and what he doesn't care about the church he only cares about making the church be a mess and this is what archbishop Anthony did he really cared about the church and he didn't make the church be influenced by a mob because byrnes think he's a politician running like how one person said not to sale your soul and this is what byrnes is doing saling his soul for love
ReplyDeleteArchbishop Byrnes is not happy with the aggressive missionary attitude we see around the NCW. Mission with no education is a recipe for failure. That is why he makes a lot of corrections in this regard. People whose faith is lacking and not properly formed won't be able to convert others to Catholic faith.
DeleteWhos "faith" isnt lacking?
DeleteTell me now so I can go receive catechesis from them.
What converts people to the Catholic faith? Its when they see people in touch with their reality. Not fakes! Not people who pretend to have faith.
This is why we go to church this is what every child is taken to the church to receive at baptism, faith!
If you have faith, why go to church? Why pray?
ps- check the catechists who form your children at CCD, what are their credentials?
Pas!
-Jokers Wild
Malformation of faith begins with wrong ideas about our Lord. The goal is to force mission no matter what. Jesus Christ is de-emphasized in the NCW with this very purpose. The Catholic church teaches that Jesus is fully present in the bread. But in the NCW it is taught that you can be a Christ. This is incorrect. You cannot be the Son of God who is divine.
Delete"Not people who pretend to have faith."
DeleteAre you seeing a lot of them in the NCW?
Please explain what you mean by "agressive missionary attitude"? If holding catechesis sessions, word celebrations, and eucharist celebrations are considered "agressive", then what do consider to be a better, more passive approach?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:08 pm,
DeleteJesus is not de-emphasized in the NCW. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2798 We can invoke God as "Father" because the Son of God made man has revealed him to us. In this Son, through Baptism, we are incorporated and adopted as sons of God.
Now, what were you saying again about not being able to be sons of God? I highly recommend that you study the Catechism of the Catholic Church before you make such accusations.
Son with capital S and sons are not the same.
DeleteYou cannot be Christ. Saying otherwise is heresy.
Dear anon at 4:16 pm, please ask the bishop who ordered the restrictions.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:19 pm,
DeleteThe NCW never claimed to be "sons of God". Do you not remember? The NCW always claimed to be "sinners."
Unfortunately this Bishop is not for the whole Catholic Church on Guam. Pope Francis needs to see this.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 7:12 am,
DeleteOn the contrary. He was for the whole Church. The NCW, which was approved by Rome, was brought in to help with Guam's shortage of priests and to help the laity renew their baptismal promises. The NCW has a good track record of saving marriages and inspiring vocations.
Which bishop are you talking about, dear anon?
DeleteI was referring to Byrnes. Will never call him his title. I knew from the get go he was not for everyone but CCOG.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:10 pm,
DeleteMy apologies. I thought you were referring to Archbishop Apuron. Personally, I think it was Archbishop Hon who was only for the Junglewatch Nation. He was the one who appeased the jungle. I cannot say that Archbishop Byrnes is only for CCOG. Archbishop Byrnes is surrounded by Rohr's people so it was much easier to listen to them. Before leaving, Archbishop Hon made sure that Rohr's group surrounded the Coadjutor Archbishop before arriving to Guam.
In fact, I am a bit suspicious as to how the deed restriction was lifted. I agree with Anonymous 9:40 pm. Archbishop Byrnes could have waited until he arrived on Guam and lift the deed restriction after studying the issue. But the deed restriction was rescinded before he arrived. For some reason, I cannot shake this feeling off that Archbishop Hon must have told him that the Deed Restriction has an expiration date when in fact, there was no timetable on the Deed Restriction. The Archbishop could rescind it at any time he wants.
You are greatly mistaken, my friend. The only thing is that Archbishop Byrnes is not from the NCW.
DeleteArchbishop Brynes is his own person. He is a mature adult and a bishop...our archbishop. Do you really believe that he is so incapable of making and following his own decisions...of leading the diocese?
DeleteDear Anon at 7:.36
DeleteNote: "Rohr's people" = Catholics
Diana, you should try to understand why Archbishop Byrnes had to make the restrictions on NCW practices. If everything would be nice and dandy, no restrictions would be needed.
ReplyDelete