So, who is making this false rumor that a "neocatechumenal way insider" blog is claiming that Father Miguel is going to be the next Bishop????? That false rumor came from Patti Arroyo and the jungle blog. According to Tim Rohr:
LOL. So I'm hearing that the kiko-dingbats are bragging about how they got the pope to get rid of Hon, and that we'll be getting a neo dude for a bishop, presumably the recently doctored Miguel "Don Quixote" Cervantes.Here it is.....the evidence and straight from the horse's mouth. It was Tim Rohr himself who made the presumption. It was Tim Rohr spreading that false rumor and placing the blame on this blog for something that was never said. So, let the light of truth be known so it can shine brightly for everyone to see.
By the way, it was ALSO Patti Arroyo who started the false rumor that the NCW was the reason for Father Paul's removal.
Obviously, Tim can't read properly.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 8:32 am,
DeleteWhat Tim Rohr did not know was that some of us already knew that a new Bishop will be sent to Guam at the time that Archbishop Hon was in Rome trying to get the Pope to remove Archbishop Apuron. Tim is saying that since the beginning Archbishop Hon was only going to be here until the end of November. That is false. Archbishop Hon made it clear in the beginning that he did not know how long his stay in Guam would be and that it would be determined by a Pope Francis. The only time Archbishop Hon mentioned that he will be leaving in November was when he returned from Rome.
Timmy wants to appear to the media as Mr. Know-it-all. But as the evidence shows, Timmy was the one who invented the false story and tried to discredit Diana's blog. But Diana caught him on his lie.
DeleteIt is time to silence Rohr! the church needs to take these measures for the sake of peace, tranquility and harmony as so oft reminded by Archbishop Hon.
ReplyDeleteAnon at 10:23AM--
DeleteJust how do you propose to silence him? In this country we have something called "Freedom of speech".
Dear Anonymous at 9:21 pm,
DeleteThis is the very reason why they are called "extremists" or "radicals". They wish to take away our freedom and impose a rule in which everyone does everything THEIR way.
Rohr group extremists radicals. core group operating not all living on Island.
DeleteThere some interesting comments going on in the jungle, showing that not everybody shares the extremism of Rohr. Let me pick some of these comments for reflection.
ReplyDeleteAndrew CamachoOctober 25, 2016 at 5:16 PM
"Let's remember that people join the NCW and other groups in search of deepening their faith. Their parish might not have offered bible studies or other activities to further their journey of faith. Some might have a need for fellowship, others might need a structured environment, etc.
I've often wondered, "Isn't the Catholic Church sufficient?" This is where the parish can provide a support community. Apparently it has been lacking and made the NCW an attractive alternative. Too bad it takes people away from true Catholic teaching and doctrine. Now that we can clearly see the problems we can begin to work toward healing the church and helping those who feel lost."
Dear Andrew, you are right that people join the Way in search of deepening their faith. We have Bible study every week, provide fellowship and structured environment. If this is what you look for why don't you join some of the communities and experience the richness of faith with us.
The Catholic Church is absolutely sufficient for us. We are not an "alternative", we belong to the Church, part and parcel. We bring people close to the true Catholic teaching and doctrine. We do help those who feel lost. Contrary to your intention, your argument is a strong one FOR the Way and not against it!
Dear Anon at 12.28. Do you not see the problem with what you say. If the NCW is simply teaching what the Catholic Church has always taught, why on earth would it keep the catechetical texts secret? And furthermore, why should they be kept secret if they have been "approved for publication"?
DeleteThere is only one reason - and it is actually explicitly stated in the catechetical texts. Kiko says a number of times (as does Carmen) - "Don't tell the people this".
In other words, the substance of their teaching is risky at best, and heretical at worst.
Why should a bishop, who has the NCW in his diocese, not be entitled to have access to these texts? Please explain this to me, as it seems on the face of it that this is a real worry.
And, for that matter, why shouldn't any Catholic have the ability to peruse those texts? If it is all orthodox and fine, then they should be as available as any other teaching text of the Church. But it is ONLY the NCW that keeps these things hidden.
That fact should make you concerned yourself. And if you are not concerned, that might illustrate just what sort of irrational hold the NCW has over its members.
Dear Anonymous at 1:08 pm,
DeleteDo YOU not see the problem???? The first volume was not kept a secret and it is all being misinterpreted by Chuck White and Tim Rohr. This is the whole point of this OP. Nowhere in my blog did I or anyone say that Father Miguel would be the new Bishop. And Tim Rohr goes on the air with Patti Arroyo claiming that my blog made that statement.
The FACT that Tim Rohr invented a false story and blamed my blog for making a claim it never did should make you concerned yourself. And since you are not concerned, that might illustrate what sort of irrational hold Rohr has over his disciples.
Your concern is yours, my friend. We don't go there. I simply don't know what you are talking about. Do you need a book to use it as an axe? Our concern is spiritual growth in the Lord Jesus.
DeleteDiana, Rohr is spinning lies and false rumor. He is a master of invention and bigotry. First of all, he should be concerned of himself and his family. But his priorities are not right! His kids do need a real father, not a lousy jungle surfer.
DeleteDear Diana, yes I do see the problem.
DeleteAnd no, you are wrong to say "the first volume was not kept a secret". Of course it was, it just happened that it leaked out. If the first volume is freely available, please provide a link to where I might get a copy.
But this is only half the problem. Sure, there are those like Church White who want to analyse the text, but which text is it? Is it the one that was used prior to the "approval"? Is it the one that was produced as an "interim" version? Or is it the one that the Church actually approved for publication.
And, which version do the catechists use when they teach? Given that most of the catechists were formed before the Vatican "approval for publication", I guess they are still using the old one - you know, the one that needed 30,000 additions, corrections or footnotes.
Its stupid when one of the NCW claims that its all exactly what the Church teaches. Firstly, because we can't verify that claim, and they know it. Secondly, because we have witnessed ourselves the deviations from orthodoxy eg the NCW method of communion.
And, all you can do Diana is deny there is any issue there, and try to distract with some red herring about Tim Rohr. Who cares! Fix your own problems first, and you might find Tim Rohr disappearing.
Dear Anonymous at 2:07 pm,
DeleteThe volume was not leaked out. It was published and available over the Internet for sale. The one that Chuck White has been criticizing is the one approved by the Vatican. So, the fact that the Vatican approved it does not matter to Mr. White. Clearly, he thinks he knows better than the Vatican.
Just like the false stories of the real Bishop of Guam and who was born and raised in Guam!! Tim Rohr and his puppets should be accountable for all those lies,lies,lies,lies. the man is just trying to destroy the Church,he keeps saying he's winning!!
DeleteDear anon, you say:
Delete"Firstly, because we can't verify that claim, and they know it."
Lol. At the first place, why on earth are you concerned about verification of anything? Are you a church official, my friend? If you are not, it is not your job to verify anything.
"Secondly, because we have witnessed ourselves the deviations from orthodoxy eg the NCW method of communion."
What do you want from Christ, my fiend? Do you want "orthodoxy" or salvation? The two do not always go hand-in-hand. People who cannot accept anything unorthodox, are usually very stingy and fist-handed. They have the compulsion to control others and they truly suffer when they can not!
Try to choose the better thing of the two, my friend, as Lazarus' sister Maria chose over Martha. Choose salvation in Christ, rather than orthodoxy to some rules that either do not exist of you don't even know them! Christ is always there for you and knowable.
Try to give up your fist-handedness and just relax. Let the Holy Spirit take over your worries and compulsions. He will make you free, just as you ask Him. Then your urge to control the whole wide world will cease. It will be a relief for you, please, believe me. Then embrace the salvation of the Lord and embrace your sisters and brothers without worry.
You will see the peace of the Lord surpassing all understanding is lifting you up from your misery. Just call for it, my friend and you'll receive. Let orthodoxy just go... you won't needit anymore. Make room in your heart to Jesus!
Wow, Anonymous at 4:21 pm. Are you serious saying you don't want to stick to orthodoxy in Catholic matters? Orthodoxy is a compass to show you the unquestionable direction of Catholicism all the time! Do you question that?!
DeleteThen what do you want to stick to? To the instructions of Kiko?
J.R.San AgustinOctober 26, 2016 at 3:27 PM
ReplyDelete"I feel compelled to join in on Andrew Camacho’s comment, and that of Rose de los Reyes’. They are absolutely right on target on what needs to happen to "get our Church back". Yes, we have to blame the Neos for invading and claiming our territory, and acting as if they are “the Church” and we are to follow in the Way to become better Catholics. But I feel we have to blame ourselves as well for allowing our lives to be conditioned to become lax such that we are both prone to be receptive of their apostolate, and for not practicing our faith as militant Catholics.
An adult catechetical program to engage our Catholic population to know more (in depth) the tenets of their Catholic Faith – and why we believe what we believe - and the practice of their Catholic religion. And this must have its roots in the parish level, and upon our Catholic clergy.
Our Catholic Faithful must be HUNGRY for more in-depth knowledge of their Faith, and our pastors must be FIRED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT to provide such an atmosphere. They say that “knowledge is power”."
Dear J.R., you are mischaracterizing the NCW by claiming we invaded your territory. We are the same Catholics living on Guam, we are one of you! We are not invaders from another world, we are Catholics sharing the diocese you live in with you.
Yes, you can blame yourselves for being lax and not practicing your faith the way we do. It is exactly our zeal and fire for the Lord that attracts people to join our communities in Christ. You don't have to be any bit militant for joining and experiencing the Lord among your sisters and brothers!
We provide the catechetical program to engage our Catholic population to know better (in depth) the tenets of the Church. We have our root and membership in the parishes, keeping several Catholic communities in the same parish. Our parish priests give us the guidance for spiritual growth. If you truly hunger for the truth and for the presence of Jesus in your heart, then you are already half way through your own indifference and lack of faith. Please make the second half of the step to get out of complacency and open your heart for Christ.
We will always be here and stay here on this beautiful island to ease your hunger for the Lord, if only you would just give yourself a chance among us. The Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you always!
Dean Anon at 12:55 pm, you paint here a bright picture of NCW. But is it truly that bright? You overemphasize the sinful nature of man. This is beyond what the Church says. Someone is a sinner as long as that person commits sin. If sins are repented and confessed. the absolution take away the sin. Lo, man is not a sinner anymore. Why do you teach otherwise?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:14 am,
DeleteWe emphasized the sinful nature of man because that is the truth. We are sinners. Only Jesus and Mary were born without original sin and did not commit any personal sins.
However, we also teach that sins are forgiven and removed when the person repents and confesses his/her, sin. Members are always encourage to go to confession. But how long do you think man can remain sinless in that holy state? Pope Francis goes to confession every two weeks. Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa went to confession every week. Pope Pius XII went to confess every day.
The important thing after receiving absolution is to think of God's mercy rather than thinking of yourself being holy.
Hahaha at Anon. at 9:14 am, "man is not a sinner anymore." What church do you go to where they teach that? Because, I think most catholic will commit sin 2 minutes after they receive absolution, me included.. but for me it is more like 3 seconds after, when thoughts betray me.
DeleteDCI
Diana, the church acknowledges that we are sinners without Jesus. But with Jesus, everything has changed! We are not sinners anymore, especially not when we take the Holy Eucharist on our tongues!
DeleteIf mankind is irredeemably sinful then saying that Mary and Jesus did not have sin would deny their human character! Jesus is fully human and fully divine. Both of it. If he is fully human then he fully shares our plights as human beings. That is why NCW says Jesus is also a sinner.
Now, the question is here: how can you call yourself a Catholic if you claim that Jesus is a sinner?! Here is the bare reason people of Guam want to rid of NCW from here. They don't want to be converted to a belief that Jesus is a sinner. Either Jesus is a sinner and then faith in him means nothing. Or Jesus is not a sinner and whoever says otherwise is from the devil.
Do you agree, Diana?
Dear DCI, if you have sin then you cannot receive the Eucharist. Unless, of course, you want to commit a sacrilege. The sacrificial nature of the Holy Eucharist burns out the residues of sin from the soul. If you can't believe this, why on earth are you taking the Holy Sacrament of Eucharist?
DeleteIt is the blood of Jesus that has the power! The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world. You have to submit to this power to get your sin expiated. Can't you just believe in His Precious Blood? Are you in denial?!
Anon. at 11:33 am, No i'm not in denial, I confess that I'm a sinner and God loves me, a sinner. Not all Catholics know to go to confession before the Sacrament of Eucharist.
DeleteI envy you for not sinning after your absolution. That is really really tough to do for us sinful Catholics. How many times have you gone to confession? I'm going to guess many times like many Catholics do...and why would you need to go to confession more than once?
But can you say where they teach you that man is not a sinner? I'd like to go that church and learn it for myself.
DCI
CCC 602
DeleteConsequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers. . . with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake." Man's sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death. By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
CCC 1367
The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.
CCC 1393
Holy Communion separates us from sin. The body of Christ we receive in Holy Communion is "given up for us," and the blood we drink "shed for the many for the forgiveness of sins." For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time cleansing us from past sins and preserving us from future sins:
For as often as we eat this bread and drink the cup, we proclaim the death of the Lord. If we proclaim the Lord's death, we proclaim the forgiveness of sins. If, as often as his blood is poured out, it is poured for the forgiveness of sins, I should always receive it, so that it may always forgive my sins.
Dear DCI, read above, please: "God made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." The righteousness of God has no sin in it at all!
Delete"This sacrifice is truly propitiatory." The Blood of Jesus has the power to expiate sins.
"The Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time cleansing us from past sins and preserving us from future sins." If you are not separated from your sin even at the Holy Eucharist, then you are an irredeemable sinner, indeed. I'll pray for you.
At Anon. at 5:56pm,yes please pray for me, but also see the following:
Delete1. Please see Romans 5:10-18.
2. Please also see April 20, 2016, in St. Peters Square in Pope Francis General Audience where says, "All of us are sinners but many times we fall into the temptation of hypocrisy, to believe that we are better than others." He said this among many other things.
Thanks for the reference to the other comment but I don't feel qualified to interpret those entries, I do read what the Pope says about many thing Catholic, particularly where he says that we are all sinner.
This will be my last comment on this topic. Thank you for the dialog.
DCI
This was not an official declaration with vested papal authority. That's how you became distracted. Roman 5:10-18 talks about us without Jesus. But we are Christians because with Jesus everything has changed! I do not think I am better than a sinner or even a pagan for that matter. I am no better, I only have a chance to come to the Lord.
DeleteGod bless you.
Anon Oct 28 5:04 and Oct 28 5:56
DeleteFantastic...so as I have gone to every mass every Sunday and received Communion, I don't need reconciliation or penance from my Priests so long as I go to Eucharist.
The way does not invade and take away from the church. The way is a gift of the Holy Spirit acting within the very heart of the church. The way is a fruit, a charism from the Lord himself for the church. The NCW is a gift given by the Spirit for the growth of the church.
ReplyDelete