Chuck White accused the NCW of not believing in Christ's unique presence in the Eucharist simply because the NCW has the Holy Bible in the tabernacle. His accusation is false. The NCW teaches that the bread and wine turns into the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ after the priest consecrates it. The NCW ALSO teaches that the Holy Bible is the word of God and deserves veneration.While we Catholics worship the Blessed Sacrament reserved in a tabernacle, we do NOT worship a bible, and while Jesus is “truly, really, and substantially” present under the appearances of bread and wine, [CCC 1374 and following], He is NOT present “under the appearances of paper and ink” of a Gospel book. Instead, as we have said, He is present in the proclamation of the Gospel.The official teaching of the Church is that the presence of Christ in the Eucharist is unique, and Kiko’s blurring of the distinction between Christ’s modes of presence, if not heretical, is deeply problematic for this reason: his followers, under the influence of the powerful image of these tabernacles, might well come to believe that the presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament in the tabernacle is as symbolic as His presence in the Gospel book placed above it.
The NCW do not worship the Holy Bible, but they do venerate it because it is the word of God, and we follow the Catechism of the Catholic Church. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the bold is mine):
CCC 134 All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, "because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ" (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2,8:PL 176,642:cf. ibid. 2,9: PL 176,642-643).
CCC 135 "The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are inspired, they are truly the Word of God" (DV 24).
CCC 141 "The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures as she venerated the Body of the Lord" (DV 21): both nourish and govern the whole Christian life. "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path" (Ps 119:105; cf. Is 50:4).The Church has always venerated the Holy Bible as she venerates the Body of the Lord. The Holy Bible is to be respected because it is truly God's written words. God is the author of the Holy Bible.
In the Old Testament, three things were placed inside the Ark of the Covenant: the manna, Aaron's rod, and the stone tablets containing God's words (Hebrews 9:4). The manna represented the Bread which is the Body of Christ in the New Testament. Aaron's rod represented the priesthood, which pointed to Christ as the true high priest who takes away the sins of the world. The stone tables represented God's word, and Christ as the Word of God made flesh. In the Old Testament, the Ark of the covenant was the dwelling place of the Lord God, and the Israelites worshiped God when they bowed before the Ark of the Covenant. Nowhere in the Bible did it say that they worshiped the bowl of manna, a rod, and stone tablets. In the same way, the NCW worship God in the tabernacle.
In the New Testament, the new Ark of Covenant was the Blessed Virgin Mary. She carried in her womb the true bread of life, the true high priest who takes away the sins of the world, and the Word of God made flesh. Therefore, it is fitting that the Holy Bible be placed in the tabernacle simply because the word of God belongs together with His Body as proven in the Old and New Testament. His word was never separated from His body. In fact, one can even see that in the Mass.
While it is true that Christ is uniquely present in the Eucharist, this does not mean that we are to show no respect for God's written word. Yes, God's WRITTEN word. The Bible is not man's written words. It came from God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and therefore deserves veneration. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."
"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."In both the Old and New Testament, both the word and body had always been together in the Ark of the Covenant, which is the dwelling place of the Lord. Therefore, the NCW did not invent anything new because the Church recognized that both the word and body were always together.
Did not Chuck White understand that even in the Mass, the Liturgy of the Word is never separated from the Liturgy of the Eucharist (Body)? Where in the ENTIRE Mass did Chuck White ever see the Liturgy of the word and the Eucharist separated and not celebrated together? Holy Mother Church had always recognized that it is both word and body that nourished and strengthen the Church. The word of God is the lamp at our feet that lights our path to Christ (Psalm 119:105) while His Body gives us eternal life (John 6:51).
Chuck White can argue that God never gave us a book. This is simply false teaching. In fact, the very first book He gave were the Ten Commandments, which was written by His own hands with fire on stone tablets. As the Catechism says (CCC 105) God was the author of Sacred Scripture, and He handed this book (Holy Bible) to His Church.
ReplyDeleteDiana the word of God is to be proclaimed. In the proclamation God is present. The word of God the bible is not to be venerated.ncw theology fails to conform to Dei Verbum vat 11.
Dear Anonymous at 9:41 am,
DeleteObviously, you did not read the OP. I just cited the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which stated:
CCC 141 "The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures as she venerated the Body of the Lord" (DV 21): both nourish and govern the whole Christian life. "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path" (Ps 119:105; cf. Is 50:4).
Proclaiming the Word of God is also called evangelization. NCW is the evangelizing arm of the Roman Catholic Church. That is what we do best!
DeleteEvangelization means to fulfill the mandate of Jesus Christ to “make disciples of all nations” (Matthew 28:19), so that all might respond to the Father’s love and be saved through communion with Jesus and His body, the Church. At the core of evangelization is “the proclamation of Christ and his Gospel by word and the testimony of life,” which invites conversion, evidenced through faith in Christ, repentance, and full communion with the Catholic Church. (Catechism of the Catholic Church Glossary)
http://rcav.org/evangelization/
Obviously they DID read your OP. Anonymous and you both quoted Dei Verbum. Lighten up with the combativeness.
DeleteIf you're as thin skinned as people at jw, stop posting.
The problem with the jungle is that they don't want to understand a basic fact about the Bible. The New Testament is our number one source about Jesus Christ. Whatever we know about our Lord is from the Sacred Scriptures. No tradition or any other source can claim anything about the Savior that is not coming from the Gospels! Therefore the Bible is the primary source about Jesus, overriding everything else!
DeleteTraditionalists say claiming primacy of the Gospel above tradition is Protestantism. They forget that the Bible came into being by purifying and recording competing traditions about Jesus by eye witnesses. These eye witnesses are the apostles and those accompanying the apostles. Therefore all valuable Christian tradition is already present in some form in the Scriptures!
Protestants follow the 'Sola Scriptura' that means 'only the Scriptures', the Bible is the only one. They are wrong because sacred tradition is also essential part of what we believe in. So rather than saying the Scripture is the only one, we need to say 'Sacra Scriptura' the Scripture is the Holy one!
Let's summarize: Sola Scriptura is replaced by Sacred Scriptura
and the Bible is the only one is replaced by the Bible is the holy one!
This means the Bible is a very special book, a holy and sacred imprint of Jesus Christ, the Logos himself on humanity. The Logos comes first, the Word of God comes first, the Holy Bible comes first, before anything else. This elevates the Bible to a very unique and special place in the Catholic faith, as well.
Dear Anonymous at 12:08 am,
DeleteI disagree with some of the things you say here. Christ is the Logos. He came first. Scripture is "graphe." It came toward the end of the fourth century. Oral tradition about Christ came first and then later written down. Catholics venerate the Holy Bible. You are correct when you emphasized Sacred Tradition. Catholics follow both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. They are equally important.
There are two issues here. The first is what Chuck White rightly points out - namely that it is a mistake to equate the presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament with his presence in the proclamation of the scriptures. This is what the NCW do by putting the Bible in the tabernacle. It runs the risk of misunderstanding the special presence of Christ in the Sacrament.
ReplyDeleteThere is a reason why the wider Church does not follow this practice.
And that brings me to the second point - the authority that Kiko gives to himself to ignore the practices of the Church and do things differently because he thinks they are better done his way.
This is also a major problem. In essence, kiko is saying "I know better than the centuries of holy men and women in the Church, and better indeed than God himself who has inspired and protected the teaching of the Church".
He does it with the scriptures in the tabernacle, with the menorah on the altar, with the distribution and consumption of communion, with the withholding of the catechetical teachings, with the "merkabah" lots, and with any other aspect of the NCW that you might care to examine.
What really astounds me is that the NCW willingly turn a blind eye to these things, instead they seek to defend Kiko's right to decide for himself on the basis that this is some restoration of ancient ways. This is a flase antiquarianism, which at its heart inplies a rejection of, or a disdain towards, what the Church actually teaches.
Dear Anonymous at 2:21 pm,
DeleteThe mistake of Chuck White and yours is PRESUMING that the NCW equates the Holy Bible with the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This is the same kind of mistakes that Protestants make when they PRESUME that Catholics worship Mary because they see us bowing to her statue. If Chuck White had simply ASKED us why the Holy Bible is placed in the tabernacle instead of inventing his own stories, there would have been better understanding between us. And he would have actually learned that the Israelites also worshiped God who dwelt in the Ark of the Covenant despite that a bowl of manna, a rod, and stone tablets were placed inside it. The Israelites understood clearly that God is not a bowl of manna, a rod, or stone tablets.
If you continue to invent stories and spread false propanganda instead of asking Kiko Arguello or the NCW, there is nothing we can do for you except pray for you.
Dear anon 2:21 p.m., our disdain is actually for the lukawarm Catholics, simply because they are gonna be spit out by the Lord.
Delete"If Chuck White had simply ASKED us why the Holy Bible is placed in the tabernacle instead of inventing his own stories, there would have been better understanding between us. And he would have actually learned that the Israelites also worshiped God who dwelt in the Ark of the Covenant despite that a bowl of manna, a rod, and stone tablets were placed inside it. The Israelites understood clearly that God is not a bowl of manna, a rod, or stone tablets. "
DeleteOk, so explain why only the NCW do this, and why the rest of the Church does not. Is it because the rest of the Church are wrong, or deficient? Why must the NCW do something different here? One would think that if you thought what the Church taught and practiced everywhere was good enough for you, that you wouldn't adopt these new strange practices, that differ from the Church universal.
So, what is it going to be? Are you saying that the Church is wrong, or are you saying that making the scriptures and the Blessed Sacrament appear symbolically equivalent is no big deal?
Dear Anonymous at 5:51 pm,
DeleteThe problem with you and Chuck White is that you think Catholicism is exactly the same and that everyone in the Catholic Church practice exactly the same thing. This is false. According to Pope Francis:
"“Unity does not imply uniformity,” the Pope said. “It does not necessarily mean doing everything together or thinking in the same way. Nor does it signify a loss of identity. Unity in diversity is actually the opposite: it involves the joyful recognition and acceptance of the various gifts which the Holy Spirit gives to each one and the placing of these gifts at the service of all members of the Church.”
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/10/31/pope_seek_the_unity_which_is_the_work_of_the_holy_spirit/1109856
You and Chuck White are wrong in thinking that Catholicism is all about doing and practicing everything in exactly the same way. According to Pope Francis, that is not Catholicism. Catholicism is "unity in diversity" because the Holy Spirit comes with different gifts and different charisms and different ways in serving the Church.
Jungle people, including White, Rohr, Glaube, etc. want uniform Christianity, because they are scared of any variation and diversity of faith. It is like 'horror vacui' for them, a compulsive and abnormal fear of the vacuum. For them vacuum is everything they haven't seen before, everything that is new. They run in terror when they see new things because their minds refuse to open up to these new things.
DeleteThe state of the ideal Catholic church for them is an unbearable boredom, where everyone is like everyone else, same views, same voice, same dress, same height, same shoes. For them, grey ash should cover everything in the churches and an indistinguishably uniform mass of believers should repeat mindlessly what is preached to them by mediocre priests with no personality.
No, dear jungle folks we don't need that kind of uniformity! Just keep it for yourselves. The Lord Jesus is present in various ways in everything on earth, therefore you cannot make Him a uniform, tasteless and spineless character. He is the Son of God and will remain the same vibrant and electrifying person for those who believe in Him that He also have been. Sorry guys, but my Jesus is just not the same as yours, because you leave out His heart and soul and human character that He shared with us all. If you are not electrified by the presence of the Lord in your life then you must know that there is something very wrong in you, my friend.
Diana,
ReplyDeleteOne little note. You said "The Israelites understood clearly that God is not a bowl of manna, a rod, or stone tablets."
That's just it. It was just manna, but the Eucharist really IS God in the most literal way possible. That's why this is such an issue.
It's not presumption if your words are ambiguous. And clearly I did read it, and did not correct what you said there because it served no purpose since you're not listening any better than those you are correcting.
DeleteSo again, I'm not presuming. Either your words are ambiguous, or you don't know. I can only assume it was ambiguous in phrasing.
So is all of this the fruit of WYD?
Dear Anonymous at 2:49 pm,
DeleteAnd what made you PRESUME that we do not know that? Did you read the OP?
Dear Anonymous at 5:02 pm,
DeleteIf you find my words ambiguous then for you the Catechism of the Catholic Church is ambiguous. I cited the Catechism of the Catholic Church as my source. Tell me........exactly what part in the OP do you disagree with? Is it the sentence where I said that God is the author of Scripture? Perhaps, you disagree with what I said about the word of God being inside the Ark of the Covenant in the Old and New Testament? Or maybe you disagree with me when I stated that the Church has always venerated Sacred Scripture? Which one is it?
It's the line I quoted from you that's the problem, and that problem is YOUR ambiguity. Yet, even your citation from the Catechism where Dei Verbum is quoted has its own vagueness that every theologian on the planet recognizes--not that it's wrong, but it's unclear. The language of theology MUST be precise. If you don't want to be precise, then fine, but don't presume to teach.
DeleteNo wonder you're accused of being Protestants in disguise.
Dear anon at 2:49 p.m. The Eucharist is not God! Where did you pick up that silliness? The Catholic Church teaches that the Eucharist is a Holy Sacrament where the Body and Blood of Christ is appearing mysteriously, in a real manner under the species of the Eucharistic host and wine.
DeleteThe Eucharist is the sacrament, and the Holy Host is the Body and Blood of Christ. Whenever we submit to the Holy Sacrament, we consume the Body and Blood of our Lord as a remembrance. Because we are all like doubting Thomas, we need the touch of Christ in order to believe.
Jesus had pity on us and wanted to gather and protect us under his wings. But we refused and killed Him. That is why He established the Eucharist as a Holy Sacrament for His followers who are us, you and me! He established that even if we kill Him, we still could feel Him in Body and Blood. That is why it is holy.
The Eucharist is first of all holy! It is not God, but God appears in the Eucharist so that we can taste and eat. The Eucharist is like the tangible interface between God the Son and His people. Halleluja!
Dear Anonymous at 5:51 pm,
DeleteThe line you quoted was "the Israelites understood clearly that God is not a bowl of manna, a rod and stone tablets." This is what you disagree with? Are you saying that they did not understand who God is and that they actually believe He is a bowl of manna, a rod and stone tablets?
Please stick to the topic of discussion. The moment you attack the person is the moment you lose the debate.
Invent? That's a laugh. If we are all Catholic as you say, then NCW teaching would be the teaching of the whole Church.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 2:55 pm,
DeleteIt is Catholic teaching. Did you not notice that I cited the Catechism of the Catholic Church to support what I say? Or perhaps you did not read the OP?
It is the other way around, dear anon. at 2:55 p.m. Lol! We are all Catholics, therefore the teaching of the Church is what is taught in the NCW. No distinction. Imagine the Catholic Church as a big circle and the NCW is a smaller circle fully inside the big circle. I hope this helps!
DeleteDear Diana,
ReplyDeleteThe Catholic Encyclopedia says "A number of decisions have been given by the Sacred Congregation of Rites regarding the tabernacle. According to these, to mention the more important decisions, relics and pictures are not to be displayed for veneration either on or before the tabernacle ("Decreta auth.", nos. 2613, 2906). Neither is it permissible to place a vase of flowers in such manner before the door of the tabernacle as to conceal it."
If even a relic of Our Lord is not to be placed in front of the Tabernacle for veneration, we must realize that it should not be placed INSIDE the Tabernacle either. This would hold true for the Scriptures also. The Tabernacle is reserved for the True Presence of our Lord, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
Diana, you state "Did not Chuck White understand that even in the Mass, the Liturgy of the Word is never separated from the Liturgy of the Eucharist (Body)? Where in the ENTIRE Mass did Chuck White ever see the Liturgy of the word and the Eucharist separated and not celebrated together?"
Diana, you belittle Chuck White's intelligence. Of course he knows the Liturgy of the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Word are celebrated in one Mass. But, the Tabernacle(which is NOT the Mass) is a place where the True Presence of Our Lord is reserved. There is no Catholic catechism, document, encyclical, approved Catholic Liturgical Book, Pope, or Saint etc. that says the Scriptures should be placed inside the Tabernacle. The NCW does not have permission from the Pope to do this.
Dear Anonymous at 4:30 pm,
DeleteAnd in all this with the the specific mention of flowers, pictures, relics, and so on........where does it specifically say that the word of God (Sacred Scripture) is banned from the tabernacle?
It never said anything about the bible being in the tabernacle or NOT being in the tabernacle. Anon. 4:30 "presumed" it was in there. There's a lot of "presumptions" going around in the Thoughtful Catholic blog.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 5:20 pm,
DeleteExactly! Anonymous 4:30 pm stated that there is no catechism, document encyclical, liturgical book, pope or saint saying that scripture should be placed in the tabernacle. On the other hand, there is also no catechism, document, encyclical, liturgical book, pope, or saint saying that Scripture should NOT be placed in the tabernacle.
So where did this rule come from that God's word (Sacred Scripture) should NOT be in the tabernacle??? It was a man-made rule imposed by Chuck White and the jungle who preached false teachings.
Are you kidding? The lack of attention given to the idea of placing the scriptures in the tabernacle is proof that it is simply unthinkable for Catholics!
DeleteDid you know that the Church says nothing about not keeping the bishop's staff in the tabernacle either. Does that mean we should do that too?
You are simply not Catholic if you don't have a problem with this. The tabernacle is for the reservation of the Blessed Sacrament alone, to show that it is, alone, the true and real presence of Christ incarnate.
The NCW is wrong. It is an intentional difference of theology. There is no point saying "Chuck White should ask us what we believe", because you display what you believe in your actions. Like this, form the RMS seminary Perth:
http://www.rmsperth.org.au/page17.html
The double-decker tabernacle with the caption "The Tabernacle shows the Sacramental presence of Jesus in the Scriptures (Silver Bible) and the Eucharistic Species (Body of Christ)."
simple. PLain. household. heresy.
Dear anon. at 4:30 p.m. We do not belittle Chuck. He is the best kitchen theologian I have ever seen! Like the kitchen cabinet, you know. You have "the" cabinet in Washington D.C. governing the country and you have a kitchen cabinet in every household. Do you understand now?!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:02 pm,
DeleteWhat exactly is heresy about having the Word of God in the tabernacle when you can find it the Bible? What is heresy is saying that the Word of God does not belong in the tabernacle because nowhere does the Catholic Church teach this.
While the presence of Christ is truly in the Eucharist in that it is truly His Body, blood, soul and divinity, does this mean that his presence in the rest of the other Sacraments are symbolic??? On the contrary. Catholic teachings says that God's words are REAL and not symbolic. God presence is REAL in all other sacraments. God's presence is REAL all around us because God is everywhere. These are not symbols. Christ's body in the Eucharist is most definitely the MOST and HIGHEST of all reality because we can see, touch, and eat His body. But that does not make God's presence everywhere else a symbol or less real.
For example, just because we cannot see and touch God in the sacrament of Baptism does not mean that He is not there or that his presence is less real. He is also there, but not in Body and blood. He is there in soul and divinity. It is ONLY in the Eucharist that He is present in all four states: Body, blood, soul and divinity.
"It is ONLY in the Eucharist that He is present in all four states: Body, blood, soul and divinity."
DeleteWhich is why the Church developed the use of the tabernacle, and why the Church does not reserve the book of Scripture in the tabernacle. Nor does the priest reside there, nor the community in whom God is present, or even the presence of God in the sacrament of Baptism.
By putting the book so scripture on the same level as the Eucharist (actually, a superior level) in the tabneracle, the sepcial presence of the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament is diminished or obscured.
Kiko knows what he is doing, by the way. The only reason you have differences in the Mass is because Kiko wanted it that way. You defy the Church's ordinary teaching and authority by doing these different practices, and by implication accuse the Church of being deficient in her own ordinary practices. For you would not do those things if you didn't actually believe it was better to do those things.
Dear Anonymous at 12:43 am,
DeleteThat is only your opinion. Protestants will tell me every time that it is better to get rid of the statues and icons because it is wrong to bow to them. Now, you are telling us to get rid of the Holy Bible for pretty much the same reason. The idea is not to show that the Holy Bible is on the same level as the Eucharist just as you falsely assume. The idea is to show that the Word of God and the Eucharist are both needed to nourish the people of God just as the Catechism says.
And how are we being defiant when there are no rules stating that one should not put the Holy Bible in the tabernacle? That is only a rule YOU made up yourself. So, why should we follow YOUR rule?
Dear Anon at 12:43 a.m. No, we don't. We do not accuse the Church of being deficient. We are the ones who are deficient. We are the ones who are sinners. We are the ones who killed our Lord on the cross. That is why we don't have any other way to come to Jesus but the Holy Bible!
DeletePerhaps you know other way to come to Jesus, without the Bible. Then grab your opportunity and come to the Lord. We only tell you what we have experienced. Dei Verbum is the powerful Word of God and the Word of God is Jesus, who is the Logos. The Bible is our guide to salvation, our only chance of redemption. If you have other chance, then grab it. We tell you what is working for us and what we follow. If your way is different then so be it.
The Holy Bible says that the Pharisees questioned Jesus because they wanted to find something to accuse Him, so that they could charge Him and kill Him. Are you questioning Dina,a because you want to accuse the NCW falsely. Then you are going down on the wrong road my friend. When you falsely accuse your brother you end up on the road to hell and not to heaven.
Anonymous at 6:25,
Deletethe only way to Jesus Christ is not through the Bible, but rather through the Church, and it is the Church that proclaims the Scripture is authoritative (that's why we quote the Catechism, like 75-79). So yes the Bible, but through the Church in the Holy Spirit to the Bible. Did not we come to the Scriptures through the Church? Just a thought.
Just to be clear here, there's no rubric against packets of Sweet-n-Low in the Tabernacle, but we would all agree it doesn't belong there. That argument that all not prohibited is permitted gets problematic when it comes to theology, wouldn't you agree? You were better off sticking to quoting from Dei Verbum.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 5:53 pm,
DeleteJust to be clear here, I think you and I can agree that the word of God was in the Ark of the Covenant in both the Old and New Testament. And I am sure we can also agree with the Catechism of the Catholic Church which stated:
CCC 134 All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, "because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ" (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2,8:PL 176,642:cf. ibid. 2,9: PL 176,642-643).
The Tabernacle is the special place reserved for the Eucharist, the TRUE PRESENCE, Body AND Blood AND Soul AND Divinity, NOT Body OR BLOOD OR Soul OR Divinity. Only the Eucharist, HIS TRUE PRESENCE, is ALL FOUR.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if, as the NCW ASSUMES, the Scriptures belong with the True Presence of Our Lord, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, and the True Presence of Our Lord belongs with the Scriptures, then the NCW can also erroneously ASSUME that the True Presence of Our Lord can be left on the ambo where the majority of Churches leave the Scriptures. (and perhaps in our own homes side by side with our own Bibles too?) SACRILEGE!
I understand the importance the NCW places on the Scriptures, and so should we all, and we DO. But, where in the approved 2008 Statutes and/or on what page in any of the NCW's approved Directories did the Vatican give the NCW permission to do so. Permission does not exist. This is another one of the erroneous beliefs and practices that the NCW must be charitably corrected in.
There are 35,000 Christian denominations which divide the One Body of Christ because they truly believe they have the "whole" Truth, and that they were guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not cause division. Satan does.
Praying that we may all be ONE.
Dear Anonymous at 12:08 am,
DeleteRead what I wrote. Was there anything in what I wrote making any kind of assumption that the Holy Bible is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ? What makes you ASSUME that I cannot distinguish the difference between Sacred Scripture (which is to be venerated) and the host (which is to be worshiped)? This is the same kind of mistakes that Protestants make. They tell us to remove all statues and icons because they ASSUME that we cannot distinguish between an icon and an idol.
Diana, thank you for the post. Just a question, you mention that you know the difference, but does the NCW clarify this to its members? Also, if a guest to your mass is present, is this explained to them?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 7:23 pm,
DeleteIf the NCW member is not Catholic, he/she is educated in the Catholic faith. And if the guest is not Catholic, the rules are explained to them, and they cannot eat the Body and Blood of Christ. The NCW members who were baptized Catholics understood the distinction and it is emphasized to them because there is greater care in setting up the Eucharist and the Easter Vigil than any of our other celebrations. It takes approximately two hours to set up the Eucharist especially if you have to mop and clean the floor as well as vacuum the rugs. Altar covers also have to be ironed beforehand. Greater care has always been put in the setting up of the Eucharist celebration.
Yep. And when you make the bread that is to be used for the Eucharist, you don't just make the bread any way you want. The person making the bread has to say a prayer first. And there are certain rules on how the bread is to be made. If the bread didn't come out right, the person starts all over or else get someone in the community who knows how to make the bread properly because that bread will be used in the Eucharist, which will become the Body of Christ after it's been consecrated by the priest.
DeleteI could hardly believe you would print this without a correction:
ReplyDeleteAnonymousAugust 12, 2016 at 5:55 PM who said:
"Dear anon at 2:49 p.m. THE EUCHARIST IS NOT GOD. WHERE DID YOU PICK UP THAT SILLINESS?...."
I thought perhaps I was reading this in the wrong context, but at the end the person says again," The Eucharist is first of all holy! IT IS NOT GOD, but God appears in the Eucharist so that we can taste and eat. The Eucharist is like the tangible interface between God the Son and His people. Halleluja!"
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
From "Divine Mercy in My Soul Diary" by Saint Faustina - Excerpt Page l43 #312:
"Once when I went outside the convent to go to confession, I chanced upon my confessor saying Mass just then. After a while I saw the Child Jesus on the altar, joyfully and playfully holding out His hands to him. But a moment later the priest took the beautiful Child into his hands, broke Him up and ate Him alive. At the first instant I felt a dislike for the priest for having done this to Jesus, but I was immediately enlightened in the matter and understood that this priest was very pleasing to God."
Both this priest and Saint Faustina understood the TRUE PRESENCE.
Dear Anonymous at 2:18 am,
DeleteCould you clarify what it is that is supposed to be a correction? Are you saying that the Eucharist is NOT a sacrament and that it is God?
Gotcha Diana! Thank you for confirming what the NCW teaches.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:39 am,
DeleteCorrection......it is what the Catholic Church teaches.
"He is NOT present “under the appearances of paper and ink” of a Gospel book. Instead, as we have said, He is present in the proclamation of the Gospel."
ReplyDeleteIt does not make sense that God would be present ONLY in the proclamation. If the proclamation is his ONLY presence and not prior to the proclamation itself in the presence of the "paper and ink", then the "paper and ink" are not of God, and the word of God that is being proclaimed is not of God. Because how can one proclaim God if he or she does not believe his presence is in the word itself?
It seems to be the along the same thinking that believes that life begins only after birth, when the baby exits the womb. If that is true, then abortion should be accepted by the Catholic Church.
Dear Anon, I'm afraid your logic lets you down. Also, you have been taught badly - I guess you must be a member of the NCW?
DeleteIf I write a book and you buy a copy of it, you don't now own me, but you do own a partial expression of me (in the words which I set down in the book). You won't get to know me by investigating the materials that the book was made out of, its size, or the font that is used.
But when you read, or it is read to you, then you can get to know me (at least a bit) and in a certain way, I become "present" to you.
So it is wiht Scripture, except that God is perfect and his "expression" - his Word - is also perfect and capable of revealing the presence of God himself in Christ, through the action of teh Holy Spirit.
All of this is quite different to the Blessed Sacrament, which is entirely and substantially and actually Jesus Christ! There is nothing of Jesus that is not present in this amazing sacrament, and it is absolutely right that we have a special devotion to and understanding of this presence.
Dear Anonymous at 10:14 pm,
DeleteSaint Jerome stated that to be ignorant of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ. That means a person can get to know Christ through the Scriptures. See the weblink below:
http://taylormarshall.com/2010/09/ignorance-of-scripture-is-ignorance-of.html
Diana,
ReplyDeleteA copy of the first part of this post is copied and pasted below for quick reference.
In this, Chuck White appears to be saying, "His presence in the Gospel Book above it." Meaning that the bible is above the Tabernacle. But you said this, "Chuck White accused the NCW of not believing in Christ's unique presence in the Eucharist simply because the NCW has the Holy Bible in the tabernacle."
I'm in NCW walking only 7 years and have not seen the bible placed either above or inside the tabernacle. Does NCW actually put the bible in the tabernacle? Does the bible also get placed above the tabernacle as Chuck White says?
In the churches I've been in, the bible has a special place, and it is not that close to the tabernacle.
I'm curious and want to know.I will probably ask my priest also.
Thanks.
Friday, August 12, 2016
Sacred Scripture
According to Chuck White:
While we Catholics worship the Blessed Sacrament reserved in a tabernacle, we do NOT worship a bible, and while Jesus is “truly, really, and substantially” present under the appearances of bread and wine, [CCC 1374 and following], He is NOT present “under the appearances of paper and ink” of a Gospel book. Instead, as we have said, He is present in the proclamation of the Gospel.
The official teaching of the Church is that the presence of Christ in the Eucharist is unique, and Kiko’s blurring of the distinction between Christ’s modes of presence, if not heretical, is deeply problematic for this reason: his followers, under the influence of the powerful image of these tabernacles, might well come to believe that the presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament in the tabernacle is as symbolic as His presence in the Gospel book placed above it.
Chuck White accused the NCW of not believing in Christ's unique presence in the Eucharist simply because the NCW has the Holy Bible in the tabernacle. His accusation is false. The NCW teaches that the bread and wine turns into the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ after the priest consecrates it. The NCW ALSO teaches that the Holy Bible is the word of God and deserves veneration.
Dear Anonymous at 3:36 am,
DeleteNo, The Holy Bible is not placed inside the tabernacle together with the consecrated Host. I have seen the Bible placed underneath the tabernacle. And I have also seen it placed above the tabernacle. But it is never inside with the consecrated Host.
Why are there pix of the presbyter using a humeral to carry the Bible? I always thought the humeral was used when carrying the monstrance during benediction/Corpus Christi processions or the ciboriums on Holy Thursday/Good Friday which carried consecrated hosts.
DeleteWhy?!?
Dear Anonymous at 12:38 am,
DeleteThose are not humerals. They are called copes. Copes looks similar to humerals, but they are usually used outside of Mass. For example, they are used in saying the Liturgy of the hours. In praying the liturgy of the hours, the Bible is also used. You can learn more about copes in the Catholic encyclopedia weblink below:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04351a.htm