Sometimes, human beings are afraid of things that are different that they tend to stereotype things. I remember Scott Hahn once saying that he was anti-Catholic, not because of hate, but because he was ignorant of Catholicism. Later, Scott Hahn realized that he had a lot of misconceptions about Catholicism. In the same way, there are a lot of misconceptions about the Neocatechumenal Way. The article below is about the RM seminary in Australia (the bold is mine):
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Never underestimate the power of little old ladies, or of the God who listens to them.
In 1987, all that stood on the spacious, suburban site of the Redemptoris Mater Seminary in Chester Hill was a dilapidated chapel and a shrine dedicated to the Virgin Mary.
Back then, the church’s small and declining congregation of mainly older women and their local area priest, Fr Kevin Spillane, began assailing God with prayers on Friday afternoons; urging Him to send priestly vocations to the area.
It was also the year that a young Melbournian, Eric Skruzny, acted on an abiding sense that God was calling him to the priesthood, joining the inaugural class of seminarians at the world’s first Redemptoris Mater, or ‘Mother of the Redeemer’, seminary in Rome.
“This is the place we were meant to be,” Fr Skruzny, the now-rector of the Redemptoris Mater Seminary, Sydney, says.
“Lo and behold, not only on this exact site do we get vocations; we get a whole seminary built as well.”
It was the then-newly appointed archbishop of Sydney, Archbishop George Pell who, in 2001, asked the Neocatechumenal Way to establish a seminary in the archdiocese and who encouraged its development.
Redemptoris Mater opened in Pagewood the following year; the age and impracticality of the site eventually prompting the search for a new home and construction on its current site in 2008.
After a four-year build, the seminary was officially opened in 2012 in a liveable – but incomplete – state.
Its chapel is yet to be funded and built and several of its facilities remain unfinished and consequently under–utilised, but Fr Skruzny has faith that it will all be completed somehow with the grace of God.
The seminary’s aesthetic is distinctly Neocatechumenal, bearing the cultural and liturgical hallmarks of the movement John Paul II described as an “itinerary of formation”; one which began in Madrid, Spain in 1964 and has since spread to 110 countries.
Its parish–based communities typically meet for Mass on Saturday nights and attend catecheses, or teaching, during the week, emulating the intimate communities of the early Church in which pagans and unbelievers were brought into the Church as brothers and sisters in the faith.
Every Redemptoris Mater seminarian hails from one of those communities; in Ecuador, Croatia, India and Australia, among many other countries.
Perhaps unusually, their continued involvement in a parish–based community here in Sydney will be at least as important in their preparation for the priesthood as their five-year academic formation.
“Seminary is not the place to give the students faith,” Fr Skruzny says.
“It’s an artificial community whereas a real Christian community needs to be formed of men, women, older, younger, all sorts of people in all sorts of situations.
“Once upon a time, seminarians came from stable families with a formation sufficient to further discern the mission of the priesthood, but that is no longer the case.
“Now we see family structures are different, also society is different in the sense that, to survive today, your faith needs to be stronger. Faith formation needs to continue.”
Ongoing communion with a community that learns, grows and worships together keeps seminarians grounded, Fr Skruzny says, with the men witnessing and assisting people in their struggles, receiving the fraternity of other members in their own turn.
“Seeing the difficulties of what it means to be a husband, for example,” he says. “As a person called to celibacy they can always dream, ‘Oh, it’s easier. I wish I was married’, but then, being in contact with husbands – hearing their experiences – they see that it is not easy. “Whatever your vocation is, it’s always a challenge.”
There are seven communities in the archdiocese of Sydney; in Pagewood, Earlwood, Liechhardt, Ingleburn (in the Wollongong diocese) and Baulkham Hills (in the Parramatta diocese).
Almost all the seminarians study at the Catholic Institute of Sydney, with a few studying at Notre Dame University in Broadway.
Their studies are funded out of the archdiocesan Catholic Works Fund, for which seminarians show their support by visiting parishes, once a year, to spruik its annual appeal.
Seven seminarians have been ordained, so far, with five serving in Sydney parishes, one in Wilcannia Forbes, and the other doing further Biblical studies in Rome.
Of the seminary’s four new entrants in 2015, three hail from Australian communities; the highest proportion of Australian entrants in any year since 2002.
Two are from what, in the Way, are called “mission families” – typically a husband and wife and their children who volunteer to be sent out on mission – including to other countries – to become a sign of Christian witness in their societies, offer catecheses and to help establish or sustain parish communities.
Originally from Melbourne, one family was sent on mission to Perth before serving in Papua New Guinea for six years, deciding to return to Australia when their children got older.
Another seminarian’s family, also from Melbourne, served on mission in Broome, WA – a town with a large Aboriginal population – for eight years before he decided to join Redemptoris Mater.
“They’ve had a taste of the Church; they’ve had a taste of the mission,” Fr Skruzny said.
“They’ve seen the sufferings of people and they’ve seen the good a community can do for people. So they want to spend their lives forming these parish communities where they see that even people in broken situations can have a great change of life. And that is amazing.
“Often, you can work in a normal pastoral situation as a priest in a parish, and you can work and work and work, and you see people get older, but to see people really change in life; to see marriages being rebuilt; people with all sorts of addictions actually coming off these addictions; that’s the biggest draw I think – seeing actually-changing lives.
“And sometimes they meet people who are not ready for the main Church and [members of the community] say ‘come to my house and have a moment of prayer’, and they invite one of our priests.
“And so they have a slow introduction to the life of the Church, and that is joy.”
Some accuse the Neocatechumenal Way of poaching Catholics from the parish; drawing them into their own, insular groupings.
It’s an accusation Fr Skruzny rejects as mistaken and contrary to their parish-based reality.
“Most of the priests who have contact with our seminarians like our seminarians. But there is still a bit of fear or caution about the Neocatechumenal Way,” he says.
“We are one of these new ecclesial movements and realities so, basically, one of the challenges is to break down those barriers.”
Fr Skruzny points to a typical Australian parish of around 1000 people where there might be three weekend masses – a vigil Mass on Saturday, and two Masses on Sunday morning. Those who attend one of those masses seldom attend one of the other two, he says, and so a parish is likely to have, in practice, three separate congregations of around 300 people each.
“Are they divided? No, because you’ve got the one priest who presides at all three masses, so he’s the source of unity at all three masses.
“The people at the 9am Mass don’t feel divided from Saturday night, and we say that it’s the same with the Neocatechumenal liturgy.”
Their small congregations relative to the numbers at an average parish mass have also raised some eyebrows, but their size is relatively small for a reason.
“We often give the example of intensive care, which to others can seem a bit unfair: ‘Why has he got a doctor for himself when we are ten and only have one?’
“But the one in intensive care needs more help, and so the one in intensive care will hopefully come back to health and be released. That’s how we see the Neocatechumenal Way communities.”
The idea that Catholics are being poached away from already existing masses is wide of the mark, he says. This is no less true in parishes with a Catholic school where perhaps out of 1000 children, around 10 might attend Mass with their families.
“But we are seeing in our communities that parents come; they bring their children along. The children are happy to be there.
“They go and listen to the catecheses and the faith is really being passed on.
“So, now, we are seeing children who were born into the community 25-30 years ago, who now have families themselves.
“They’ve been open to life and now these children are in community. We see that it’s a formula that seems to be working.”
Fr Skruzny encourages priests who have any questions about the Way to visit the seminary, to get to know them, and to see how they do things. He also extends an invitation:
“Why not be involved in setting up a Neocatechumenal Way community in your own parish?”
“One of the barriers [for priests] is that ‘I don’t need more work’; [priests] are already working hard.
“I tell them that to participate in the life of one of our communities is a relaxation; it’s a joy. You’re there with the lay people who organise the liturgy; you’re there as the president [of the liturgy].
“You can open up a little bit and speak about your own struggles and suffering if you want to and the people get to know you a bit more.
“For me, I think it is a joy to be involved; that it is good and helpful for me. The less time I spend in my own time, for myself, the happier I am.”
But it would be a mistake to think that the Way’s parish–based communities were some sort of rapid panacea for declining congregations, he says.
Nevertheless, he contends that they are a good step towards welcoming the unchurched and the lapsed back into a substantive relationship with God and with others.
“A priest needs to be visionary and say, ‘Well look, unless we do something now, things are not going to get better’. I’ve seen around Sydney, in parishes I’ve been involved since I arrived, we had 1000 people coming to Mass, but today we’ve got 300. These people have disappeared.
“So the parish priest [who welcomes the establishment of a parish based community in his parish] needs to be patient, and he needs the foresight to say, ‘Look, maybe this is something I will begin’.
“‘Maybe it is my successor who will see the fruits’.”
https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/redemptoris-mater-neocatechumenal-seminary-sydney/
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Never underestimate the power of little old ladies, or of the God who listens to them.
In 1987, all that stood on the spacious, suburban site of the Redemptoris Mater Seminary in Chester Hill was a dilapidated chapel and a shrine dedicated to the Virgin Mary.
Back then, the church’s small and declining congregation of mainly older women and their local area priest, Fr Kevin Spillane, began assailing God with prayers on Friday afternoons; urging Him to send priestly vocations to the area.
It was also the year that a young Melbournian, Eric Skruzny, acted on an abiding sense that God was calling him to the priesthood, joining the inaugural class of seminarians at the world’s first Redemptoris Mater, or ‘Mother of the Redeemer’, seminary in Rome.
“This is the place we were meant to be,” Fr Skruzny, the now-rector of the Redemptoris Mater Seminary, Sydney, says.
“Lo and behold, not only on this exact site do we get vocations; we get a whole seminary built as well.”
It was the then-newly appointed archbishop of Sydney, Archbishop George Pell who, in 2001, asked the Neocatechumenal Way to establish a seminary in the archdiocese and who encouraged its development.
Redemptoris Mater opened in Pagewood the following year; the age and impracticality of the site eventually prompting the search for a new home and construction on its current site in 2008.
After a four-year build, the seminary was officially opened in 2012 in a liveable – but incomplete – state.
Its chapel is yet to be funded and built and several of its facilities remain unfinished and consequently under–utilised, but Fr Skruzny has faith that it will all be completed somehow with the grace of God.
The seminary’s aesthetic is distinctly Neocatechumenal, bearing the cultural and liturgical hallmarks of the movement John Paul II described as an “itinerary of formation”; one which began in Madrid, Spain in 1964 and has since spread to 110 countries.
Its parish–based communities typically meet for Mass on Saturday nights and attend catecheses, or teaching, during the week, emulating the intimate communities of the early Church in which pagans and unbelievers were brought into the Church as brothers and sisters in the faith.
Every Redemptoris Mater seminarian hails from one of those communities; in Ecuador, Croatia, India and Australia, among many other countries.
Perhaps unusually, their continued involvement in a parish–based community here in Sydney will be at least as important in their preparation for the priesthood as their five-year academic formation.
“Seminary is not the place to give the students faith,” Fr Skruzny says.
“It’s an artificial community whereas a real Christian community needs to be formed of men, women, older, younger, all sorts of people in all sorts of situations.
“Once upon a time, seminarians came from stable families with a formation sufficient to further discern the mission of the priesthood, but that is no longer the case.
“Now we see family structures are different, also society is different in the sense that, to survive today, your faith needs to be stronger. Faith formation needs to continue.”
Ongoing communion with a community that learns, grows and worships together keeps seminarians grounded, Fr Skruzny says, with the men witnessing and assisting people in their struggles, receiving the fraternity of other members in their own turn.
“Seeing the difficulties of what it means to be a husband, for example,” he says. “As a person called to celibacy they can always dream, ‘Oh, it’s easier. I wish I was married’, but then, being in contact with husbands – hearing their experiences – they see that it is not easy. “Whatever your vocation is, it’s always a challenge.”
There are seven communities in the archdiocese of Sydney; in Pagewood, Earlwood, Liechhardt, Ingleburn (in the Wollongong diocese) and Baulkham Hills (in the Parramatta diocese).
Almost all the seminarians study at the Catholic Institute of Sydney, with a few studying at Notre Dame University in Broadway.
Their studies are funded out of the archdiocesan Catholic Works Fund, for which seminarians show their support by visiting parishes, once a year, to spruik its annual appeal.
Seven seminarians have been ordained, so far, with five serving in Sydney parishes, one in Wilcannia Forbes, and the other doing further Biblical studies in Rome.
Of the seminary’s four new entrants in 2015, three hail from Australian communities; the highest proportion of Australian entrants in any year since 2002.
Two are from what, in the Way, are called “mission families” – typically a husband and wife and their children who volunteer to be sent out on mission – including to other countries – to become a sign of Christian witness in their societies, offer catecheses and to help establish or sustain parish communities.
Originally from Melbourne, one family was sent on mission to Perth before serving in Papua New Guinea for six years, deciding to return to Australia when their children got older.
Another seminarian’s family, also from Melbourne, served on mission in Broome, WA – a town with a large Aboriginal population – for eight years before he decided to join Redemptoris Mater.
“They’ve had a taste of the Church; they’ve had a taste of the mission,” Fr Skruzny said.
“They’ve seen the sufferings of people and they’ve seen the good a community can do for people. So they want to spend their lives forming these parish communities where they see that even people in broken situations can have a great change of life. And that is amazing.
“Often, you can work in a normal pastoral situation as a priest in a parish, and you can work and work and work, and you see people get older, but to see people really change in life; to see marriages being rebuilt; people with all sorts of addictions actually coming off these addictions; that’s the biggest draw I think – seeing actually-changing lives.
“And sometimes they meet people who are not ready for the main Church and [members of the community] say ‘come to my house and have a moment of prayer’, and they invite one of our priests.
“And so they have a slow introduction to the life of the Church, and that is joy.”
Some accuse the Neocatechumenal Way of poaching Catholics from the parish; drawing them into their own, insular groupings.
It’s an accusation Fr Skruzny rejects as mistaken and contrary to their parish-based reality.
“Most of the priests who have contact with our seminarians like our seminarians. But there is still a bit of fear or caution about the Neocatechumenal Way,” he says.
“We are one of these new ecclesial movements and realities so, basically, one of the challenges is to break down those barriers.”
Fr Skruzny points to a typical Australian parish of around 1000 people where there might be three weekend masses – a vigil Mass on Saturday, and two Masses on Sunday morning. Those who attend one of those masses seldom attend one of the other two, he says, and so a parish is likely to have, in practice, three separate congregations of around 300 people each.
“Are they divided? No, because you’ve got the one priest who presides at all three masses, so he’s the source of unity at all three masses.
“The people at the 9am Mass don’t feel divided from Saturday night, and we say that it’s the same with the Neocatechumenal liturgy.”
Their small congregations relative to the numbers at an average parish mass have also raised some eyebrows, but their size is relatively small for a reason.
“We often give the example of intensive care, which to others can seem a bit unfair: ‘Why has he got a doctor for himself when we are ten and only have one?’
“But the one in intensive care needs more help, and so the one in intensive care will hopefully come back to health and be released. That’s how we see the Neocatechumenal Way communities.”
The idea that Catholics are being poached away from already existing masses is wide of the mark, he says. This is no less true in parishes with a Catholic school where perhaps out of 1000 children, around 10 might attend Mass with their families.
“But we are seeing in our communities that parents come; they bring their children along. The children are happy to be there.
“They go and listen to the catecheses and the faith is really being passed on.
“So, now, we are seeing children who were born into the community 25-30 years ago, who now have families themselves.
“They’ve been open to life and now these children are in community. We see that it’s a formula that seems to be working.”
Fr Skruzny encourages priests who have any questions about the Way to visit the seminary, to get to know them, and to see how they do things. He also extends an invitation:
“Why not be involved in setting up a Neocatechumenal Way community in your own parish?”
“One of the barriers [for priests] is that ‘I don’t need more work’; [priests] are already working hard.
“I tell them that to participate in the life of one of our communities is a relaxation; it’s a joy. You’re there with the lay people who organise the liturgy; you’re there as the president [of the liturgy].
“You can open up a little bit and speak about your own struggles and suffering if you want to and the people get to know you a bit more.
“For me, I think it is a joy to be involved; that it is good and helpful for me. The less time I spend in my own time, for myself, the happier I am.”
But it would be a mistake to think that the Way’s parish–based communities were some sort of rapid panacea for declining congregations, he says.
Nevertheless, he contends that they are a good step towards welcoming the unchurched and the lapsed back into a substantive relationship with God and with others.
“A priest needs to be visionary and say, ‘Well look, unless we do something now, things are not going to get better’. I’ve seen around Sydney, in parishes I’ve been involved since I arrived, we had 1000 people coming to Mass, but today we’ve got 300. These people have disappeared.
“So the parish priest [who welcomes the establishment of a parish based community in his parish] needs to be patient, and he needs the foresight to say, ‘Look, maybe this is something I will begin’.
“‘Maybe it is my successor who will see the fruits’.”
https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/redemptoris-mater-neocatechumenal-seminary-sydney/
Theres so much wrong or deficient in this story. But, lets start by asking - is the author a member of the Neocatechumenal Way? I think we all know the answer to that.
ReplyDeleteThen there are comments like:
"Fr Skruzny points to a typical Australian parish of around 1000 people where there might be three weekend masses – a vigil Mass on Saturday, and two Masses on Sunday morning. Those who attend one of those masses seldom attend one of the other two, he says, and so a parish is likely to have, in practice, three separate congregations of around 300 people each.
“Are they divided? No, because you’ve got the one priest who presides at all three masses, so he’s the source of unity at all three masses."
Which is all very well until we come to celebrations such as the Easter Vigil which is meant to be one single celebration of the entire parish. And yet, we know that the BCW will remain divided from that, and conduct there own illicit affair.
The NCW is forever trying to keep the fair criticisms at bay, denying that there could ever be any problems with Kiko's inventions. And so they say things like: "“One of the barriers [for priests] is that ‘I don’t need more work’; [priests] are already working hard."
This is simply a cop out. A projection, so that they can write off any wariness or criticism rom priests who might be genuinely disturbed by the theology or practices of the NCW. "Oh, they're just afraid of the extra work they'll get if they agree to the NCW". A convenient lie to extol themselves.
Another point - have you actually visited the internet page for the Sydney seminary? Here's the home page: http://www.seminary.org.au/
Have a bit of a browse and see the sometimes subtle, sometimes not-so-subtle focus on getting your money.
And here's another Australian NCW seminary site: http://www.rmsperth.org.au/page17.html
Note the caption for the tabernacle: "The Tabernacle shows the Sacramental presence of Jesus in the Scriptures (Silver Bible) and the Eucharistic Species (Body of Christ)."
"Sacrament presence of Jesus in the Scriptures"?? Well, thats clearly not Catholic
Dear Anonymous at 8:56 pm,
DeleteThe approved Statutes of the NCW allows the community to celebrate the Easter Vigil just as it allowed the NCW to celebrate in small communities on Saturday night. You want the NCW to cease all Mass on Saturday nights and join you on Sunday Mass. However, the Vatican says that we can celebrate in small communities on Saturday nights as well as the Easter Vigil. Therefore, we are not breaking any rules in celebrating in small communities on Saturday evening as well as the Easter Vigil. Furthermore, our celebration does not conflict with the schedule of the parish Mass. You can continue going to the parish Mass as you usually do.
You stated: ""Sacrament presence of Jesus in the Scriptures"?? Well, thats clearly not Catholic."
Apparently, you do not know your Catholic faith as well as you think. According to CATHOLIC.ORG:
"Real Presence is NOT limited to the Eucharist. There are "four modes" of Real Presence: Christ is present not only in the Liturgy of the Eucharist but also in the Liturgy of the Word, the priest who celebrates, and in the people gathered together during the Mass."
http://www.catholic.org/homily/yearoffaith/story.php?id=51277
Anonymous, do you know what the liturgy of the word is? It is the reading of the scriptures. Catholic.org explains that Christ is also present in the liturgy of the word (scriptures). Christ is present not only in the Eucharist, but also in the Scriptures as it is read during Mass. This is why the NCW need to re-evangelize. There are Catholics like you who look at the tabernacle in the Church and are puzzled when they read "sacramental presence of Jesus in the Scriptures (Holy Bible) and the Eucharistic Species (Body of Christ).
Most Catholics are familiar of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. But they are unaware that the real presence of Christ is not limited only to the Eucharist. In the Eucharist, one sees the BODY and BLOOD of Christ. But did you know that Scripture is referred to as the "HEART of Christ?" (See Catechism of the Catholic Church 112).
The incitement against lawful Catholics continues at JW. This comes to a point when we must expect outright violence against our Church and against the faithful. They say something very bad will happen. They go to battle for this thing to happen.
DeleteThey claim it is the Catholics who infiltrate Guam through Spaniards and the struggle against them must continue with every ounce of strength! They consider the NCW as a source of Catholic infiltration, because we go out and evangelize people. What a twisted view! I am truly horrified.
AnonymousMarch 9, 2016 at 6:20 AM
I pray for all involved and for some kind of intervention...but something really bad is going to have to happen first...
We Chamorros are being infiltrated again...ironically, it's via the Catholic church, too...and STILL by wannabe conquering Spaniards.
Janet B - MangilaoMarch 9, 2016 at 7:48 AM
We are battling with every ounce of strength we have. The jungle is bringing the light of truth to our struggle in Guam. It is a struggle that is also taking place everywhere the NCW is present. Because Guam is so small it just happens to be more evident.
Do you deceive intentionally Diana, or is it by accident. Lets start with your last point:
ReplyDelete"But did you know that Scripture is referred to as the "HEART of Christ?" (See Catechism of the Catholic Church 112). "
Ok. I'll "see" CCC 112. Here it is:
"112 1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the wholeScripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79
The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80"
So, the phrase "the heart of Christ" in relation to Scripture is understood as the revelation of God's plan, which was previously obscured. This is not the same as saying that Christ is "really present" in the Scripture.
The Church teaches that Christ is truly present in the "proclamation of the Scripture" not in the book itself. Which is why Catholics don't reserve the book of Scripture in (or on) the tabernacle. We do not worship and adore the Bible as we do the Blessed Sacrament, simply because Christ is fully and physically present in the Eucharist.
We venerate the Bible and give it importance, but we do not worship it. Nor does the Church refer to the Bible as a sacrament, and therefore we do not properly speak of Christ's presence in the proclamation of the Scripture as sacramental. Even though the Liturgy of the Word is included in the Mass, and implicitly related to the Liturgy of the Eucharsit, the "sacrament" of the Mass is the confection of the Eucharist, not the confection of a scriptural sacrament.
You quote an article that states that "There are "four modes" of Real Presence".
This is incorrect, and you will not find it stated as such in the CCC. Rather, you will find this:
"1374 The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."199 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."200 "This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."201"
I suggest that you read this link in full. http://www.solemncharge.com/post/2013/03/27/Year-of-Faith-Catechism-Study-CCC-1373-1381-1411-1413-The-Real-Presence-of-Jesus-Christ-in-the-Eucharist.aspx
Finally, the Statutes of the NCW DO NOT contain any permission, instruction or imperative that the NCW celebrate the Vigil separately. Your claim that they do is an outright lie. Your statutes merely indicate that the Vigil is important and that the NCW will assist the parish to deepen the sense of the importance of the Vigil. Now, you may argue that celebrating a Vigil separately and in a different way will help the parish appreciate the Vigil more deeply - but that is your prejudice, not what the Statutes actually say.
Dear Anonymous at 12:58 am,
DeleteThis is what I mean when I said that you twist my words around. In my comment dated March 10 at 12:35 am,, I stated:
"Anonymous, do you know what the liturgy of the word is? It is the reading of the scriptures. Catholic.org explains that Christ is also present in the liturgy of the word (scriptures). Christ is present not only in the Eucharist, but also in the Scriptures as it is read during Mass."
Then you come in here and make the above statement as though I was never speaking about the proclamation of Christ. The liturgy of the word is part of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. You cannot separate the liturgy of the word from the liturgy of the Eucharist because they are one in the Mass.
Furthermore, where do you think the proclamation of Scripture comes from????? Is it not from the Bible????? That is why the Bible is at the tabernacle because the proclamation of scripture comes from the Bible. The liturgy of the word is one with the sacrament of the Eucharist. What I find deceitful is when you try to separate "Scripture" from the "Bible." According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 1518 Word and sacrament form an indivisible whole. The Liturgy of the Word, preceded by an act of repentance, opens the celebration. The words of Christ, the witness of the apostles, awaken the faith of the sick person and of the community to ask the Lord for the strength of his Spirit.
Anonymous, it was the Pope who praised the NCW for the long 6 hour vigil we have; therefore, he knows all about our vigil. If he feels that we are violating the GIRM, he should have spoken up rather than praise us for the Easter Vigil.
Notice how there are two components? "Word" and "Sacrament"? Not "sacrament and sacrament". The Word may be proclaimed without reading from the Bible, Diana, in which case it is no less the proclamation in which Jesus is present - but in a less full way than in the physical reality of the Eucharistic species. Christ is not physcially present in the Bible.
Delete"If he feels that we are violating the GIRM, he should have spoken up rather than praise us for the Easter Vigil. "
Yes. Wait for it.
Dear Anonymous at 10:05 am,
DeleteThe Bible is the word proclaimed. The Bible is God's word. All the readings in the Liturgy of the Word came from the Bible. According to the Catholic website I provided, it stated:
"There are "four modes" of Real Presence: Christ is present not only in the Liturgy of the Eucharist but also in the Liturgy of the Word, the priest who celebrates, and in the people gathered together during the Mass."
The liturgy of the Word proclaimed ALWAYS comes from the Holy Bible.
Wait for it? It has already been 8 years since the passage of the Statutes, and you are telling us to wait for it. I believe that after 8 years, the answer should be quite clear especially when you have the Vatican praising the Easter Vigil of the Way rather than condemning it.
The Website you quote is plain wrong.
DeleteYou will not find the same teaching in the Catechism of tha Catholic Church. The term "real presence" refers to the Eucharist only.
And, actually, the answer is quite clear, because the Pope's have said enough clearly over the years for most people to take notice. The hardcore NCW does not though. For the hard headed NCW member, there is no possibility that the NCW needs to reform, and so they can never hear what is actually being said.
But eventually - perhaps soon - the Pope will once again have to say something more directly. His softly, softly approach; his expressions of goodwill to the NCW, have not been returned in good faith, anfd the NCW still continues to deceive, to argue nonsense and to utterly refuse to see the problem.
Dear Anonymous at 2:40 pm,
DeleteThe website is a Catholic website. Catholic.org is not even. "Neo website". The problem here is that your knowledge of Catholicism is very limited. Yes, Christ is present in the Eucharist. But He is also present in the priest just as the website explains. During the Sacrament of Reconciliation, for example, it is Christ Himself who absolves you from your sins. It was not the priest who absolves you from your sins. The priest becomes "in persona Christi" (in the person of Christ) in the sacraments. His presence in the sacraments is real, not symbolic. It is the same with the Liturgy of the Word. When the Gospel is proclaimed, it is Christ Himself who proclaimed it, not the priest. All this is Catholic teaching of which you obviously have not yet learned.
Believe whatever you want to believe, but it has already been 8 years. It will be 9 years and 10 years and the years will go by without the Pope saying anything. The question is.....how many more years are you willing to wait?
The presence of Christ in the priest, the people, the sacraments and even the Word is not in dispute. It is simply that we recognize the special "real" presence of Christ, physically and spiritually in the Eucharist. The catechism is clear on this, and your inability to quote the catechism to claim this "real presence" is similarly the case in forms outside the Eucharist, is quite revealing.
DeleteThe presence of Christ in the Eucharist is superlative. And for that reason we adore Him in the Blessed Sacrament. We do NOT adore Him in the Bible. So, logically, and morally, one should not conflate the scriptural presence with the Eucharistic "real presence" by putting these things together in the tabernacle - let alone describe the presence of Christ in the Scriptures as "sacramental".
Good grief! - You should know this if you claim to be Catholic.
IN the meantime, I am preapred to wait for the inevitable reform - for the inevitable direction from the Vatican for the NCW to curb its enthusiasm, to get over itself, and to stop idolizing Kiko and the community itself. You people are so arrogant, you won't see it coming, and you might not even see it when its there (as has happened before). But God is good and protects his Church, so it will happen eventually. Don't be like the foolish virgins now......
Dear Anonymous at 5:41 pm,
DeleteThe special real presence of Christ in the Eucharist was never in dispute. The dispute started because you did not understand why the Bible is in the Tabernacle. I never said anything about adoring Christ in the Bible. I said that the real presence of Christ is in the Liturgy of the Word and that the Word (Scripture) is one with the Sacrament of the Eucharist. After all, it is unheard of to have a Mass with only the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
You can continue to wait if that is what you want. In the meantime, we will continue to do what we have always been doing.
The onslaught continues. This bunch of human individuals is trying to catch the archdiocese on criminal activity. Whoa! Are they crazy? There is not a shred of illegal things happened. Somebody may have made a slight oversight/ error and now the procedure is going to be corrected. Alright. Former senators will be disappointed when they find that Rohr made them look a bunch of human individual fools.
ReplyDeleteShortly, the arrogance and intention to terrorize lawful citizens exhibited at JW is unjustified. Read:
Wednesday, March 9, 2016
Rome, are you watching? Since you won't take on the KIKO's, WE WILL! In fact, WE ARE.
TimMarch 10, 2016 at 6:20 AM
LOL. We don't need Rome, you idiot. We are going to school them on how to take down bad guys. Watch.
Dear Anonymous at 11:32 am,
DeleteDo not worry. The petition has already been filed at the Superior Court of Guam. God allowed the error or oversight to happen for a reason.
And what if the reason was to halt the activities of the NCW? WOuld you accept that?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 5:42 pm,
DeleteI will accept what comes from the Vatican.
God allowed the error. A very typical Neo response. No Ncw knew that something was wrong from the get go but still insisted of publishing it in a official newspaper of church and government. Now NCW is blaming God for allowing it. Man up and own the blunder. It does not matter if the goal is noble (priests for the world) if the means to reach the goal is erroneous.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:02 pm,
DeleteYou do not believe that God that God allowed this error? Well, He did allow it for a reason. Of corse, we cannot see what those reasons are, but in time God will reveal His reasons. The goal has always been noble. As anyone can see, we are gettings priests for Guam and the universal Church.
Diana, I think we should thank Tim Rohr and his self-sacrificing team of junglers that they are helping to make a correction to a document at Land Management. Big deal! There will be a corrected document that they could stare at and be glad.
DeleteHowever, I have to make a stern warning here. The real test is just starting now. If the junglers wanna play out their big ego and glorify themselves, as JW demands, then they go down the loo in a short way. They had already promised to
- teach Rome a lesson,
- remove the Archbishop,
- chase away NCW from the island,
- put Msgr. David into jail,
- disbar Atty. Terlaje,
- cry out corruption at the local government, and
- etc. etc. whatnot they just could fantasize about.
Now, they have a choice. They can go for peace or for glory. If they choose glory, then they will badly fail the test. This is quite simple. All glory is due to God, only God and not to human beings!
Dear Anonymous at 4:09 pm,
DeleteTim Rohr plays into God's plan. It was the Archdiocese who made the error. Tim pointed out the error, and the Archdiocese corrected the oversight. But it all started out with the error. There will be a corrected document, but they will not be glad. Pointing out an error is a good thing, but they already failed when they claim to teach Rome a lesson and continue to call an oversight a deceit.
Do you know what the Holy Bible says? Those who exalt themselves with fall and those who humble themselves will be exalted. It takes a lot of pride for the jungle to say they will teach the Vatican a proper lesson as if Christ needed a lesson to be taught.
Sorry Diana, the end does not justify the means. The document published was 'fake' and NCW leadership knew it. That is normally what happens to people in power, they just bully their way and think that God allowed it. What kind of God is that. We are the ones who are messed up. Own up and be responsible. It was plainly an abuse of power. Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.” (Bonhoeffer)
DeleteI think the junglers are on track to speak out and to act.
Dear Anonymous at 7:52 pm,
DeleteIt was not a fake document. It was an official document from the Department of Land Management. And it is not an abuse of power when one can see effort in correcting the document by the Archdiocese. Action was taken by Jackie Terlaje to correct the document. Nevertheless, a petition was already made by Land Management and in time, we will hear from the Attorney General.
Rubbish. That the document was untrue or deceptive was known by the NCW leadership - which is why it was published and formed the basis of the party line about ownership of the property.
DeleteThere was no action to correct the document until it was clear that the jig was up! - confirming what we have already learned, namely that the NCW has no problem lying to the goyim.
Dear Anonymous at 11:58 pm,
DeleteThere was action to correct the document. By the time Klitzke came to DML, the correction was already in the process. Now that the Declaration of Deed Restriction was placed in the memorial, the jungle is simply claiming fraud as usual. It really did not matter whether the Declaration of Deed Restriction was in the memorial or not. Either way, the jungle was going to declare it a fraud. In other words, the Archdiocese was damned if it does include and damned if it did not include it.
So now you say that Atty Terlaje works for the diocese? Why did she deny it earlier?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:58 pm,
DeleteI never said that she works for the Archdiocese or not. I cannot answer your question because I am not Jackie Terlaje.
...correcting the document by the Archdiocese. Action was taken by Jackie Terlaje to correct the document.
DeleteSo how come you speak for her here. Which is it now?
Dear Anonymous at 10:40 am,
DeleteI was not speaking for her. I was reciting the same events, which can also be found in the jungle.
But atleast the truth about the owners of RMS will be revealed.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 12:57 pm,
DeleteYes, it will reveal who owns the property, but it will not put an end to the controversy.
The owner of the RMS is the Archdiocese, as a corporation sole. It has never been otherwise. Now, if the memorial is going to be corrected at the Land Management, this would not change the ownership.
DeleteAs we heard, CCOG still wants to sue the Catholic Church and the Archdiocese over the ownership. Let their intention be weighted on their souls. If Klitzkie wanted the show business in order to initiate the lawsuit, they they will go ahead no matter what. It is very possible that CCOG wanted a smoke screen. They faked a big boom, loud and shiny in order to take the glory for themselves for money raising purposes. This is a quite transparent strategy. While they throw sand into the eyes of people to blind them, they shamelessly reach out for their wallets.
If CCOG is truly for peace and reconciliation though, they won't get satisfaction from glorifying themselves with a Certification of Title business. As there is no sign of any crime committed, they can just give up the idea of a lawsuit against the church. They should humbly acknowledge that they did a volunteer service to the Archdiocese by helping to correct a document. Asa a sign of goodwill, the jungle would be shut down and CCOG disbanded at the same time. Then the Archbishop may recognize Tim Rohr's and Bob Klitzkie's contribution to the welfare of people by giving them some medal of honor and peace would be restored in the Archdiocese.
This is only possible if CCOG is shows basic humility for the Holy Mother Church respecting her peace. If they refuse to be humble and glorify themselves beyond measure even over the dignity of the Church, as their troublemakers try to force them, then a golden opportunity for reconciliation will be lost forever.
CCOG may be taken by its pride, exalting itself into fake glory and antagonizing the faithful of Guam. But CCOG also may be taken by humility to humble itself for the sake of peace among Catholics. The choice is theirs.
No, CCOG won't show Christian values that they are devoid of. No humility, no respect for the Holy Mother Church. Their big ego is taking the better half of them. Insane pride is their downfall and haughtiness is their demise.
DeleteThey want all the glory for themselves. The dignity of the church has zero monetary value for them. Corrupt and failed politicians are playing dirty games to get back in traction and get elected again. Tim Rohr as your next senator? Wow! How truly sad it is, really?!
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeletewhy did the Archdiocese give it away? Was it enough to just let the NCW use it, but to give it away and to pay for it's upkeep!
Dear Anonymous at 7:53 pm,
DeleteI believe that you are getting way ahead of yourself. We have not even heard from the courts yet.
Dear Diana
ReplyDeleteCan one prostrate themselves before the Bible and worship and adore the paper on which God's Word in written? Is this not idolatry? When we come before the Tabernacle, the Eucharist - the REAL Presence - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity - is to be adored. Please take the Bible out of the Tabernacle which is reserved for HIS REAL PRESENCE. The Bible has never been referred to as HIS REAL PRESENCE; therefore, it should not share the same space as is reserved for the REAL PRESENCE. This is a mistake of man.
Dear Anonymous at 1:13 am,
DeleteWho said anything about worshipping the Bible??? Christ is also present in the priest in the sacrament. Does this mean that we worship the priest??? Of course not. The debate here is not about worship. The question is........do you believe that The real presence of Christ is in the liturgy of the word? Do you beleive that the real presence of Christ is in the priest while he administers the sacraments? Do you believe that the real presence of Christ is in the assembly as they gather together in worship? I am not arguing about the real and unique presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
IN that case, you should put the priest on another tier in the tabernacle, and the assembley on another. Your logic is poor, and your conclusion is wrong.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:37 am.
DeleteIt was not my logic. It was the Church who taught that the priest is "in persona Christi" in the person of Christ in the Sacraments. Therefore, what you are really saying is that the Catholic Church is wrong.
The sin of pride will be one's downfall if not repented of - both for those who "uncharitably" rejoice in the "correction" of the NCW, but also for those in the NCW who refuse "correction" (as per the NCW Mass with the many additions and deletions - which are not included in the approved Statutes of 2008, making these alterations illicit.)
ReplyDeletePeace.
Dear Anonymous at,2:59 am,
DeleteIt would be prudent if you first made sure that the NCW is practicing an illicit Mass as they have always been saying that they have the permission from the Vatican. Write to the Vatican first before you make such accusation.
http://www.guampdn.com/story/opinion/2016/03/12/neocatechumenal-way-not-cult/81680306/
ReplyDeleteNeocatechumenal Way not a cult
Zoltan Szekely 10:17 p.m. ChST March 12, 2016
From time to time, the Pacific Daily News publishes articles attacking the Neocatechumenal Way, or NCW, a Catholic faith group. A common feature is that the authors are living off-island while claiming Guamanian origin. They routinely make one-sided judgments and the newspaper gladly gives them credence by publishing their biased views.
I am amazed. What is the purpose of these attacks on peaceful groups of Catholic people?
The latest attack came from Joseph Stoll, who lives in Hartford, Wisconsin. He starts by calling NCW a movement and an illegitimate cult. Neither is true. If the author would have taken the time to learn some basics about the NCW, he would know that it is an itinerary of Christian initiation and formation. It has never called itself a movement. NCW is not a cult — it is a legitimate faith group inside the Catholic Church approved by Rome and the popes.
PACIFIC DAILY NEWS
Stoll: Neocatechumenal movement is a cult
NCW teaches the content you find in the Catechism of the Catholic Church in small community setting. Out of our communities, highly committed individuals and families keep volunteering for missionary work to spread the Gospel and evangelize. Which other church group could compete with this deep devotion and enthusiasm? Later this March, Pope Francis will send out missionary families belonging to NCW for Catholic missions around the globe.
We in the NCW are steadily reading and studying the Bible, celebrating the Eucharist and spending some of our weekends at Christian retreats called conviviences. Participation at these events is recommended but never mandatory. So why is the accusation of being a cult?
Without any shred of explanation or justification in this opinion piece, the author goes on a rampage against the NCW. How is this? Are we living in a civilized society? If yes, how can one publicly insult others without reason, explanation or justification? Perhaps it is the novel approach that irritates some who loathe the way we live out our faith. We pray for them every day, so they may be blessed by discernment in their hearts.
PACIFIC DAILY NEWS
No. 7: Public discord in Catholic church continues
On Guam, hundreds and hundreds, even thousands have joined a Catholic lifestyle characterized by fellowship in Neocatechumenal communities. Condemning the archbishop for allowing this Catholic lifestyle to prevail is unjust. Even if he himself is a member of one of our communities, it has an impact on his own private life only. Island Catholics are free to join any church group they wish to participate in. If financial statements are to be published, as the author requests, parish councils are encouraged to make the move.
The author’s insinuation when he tries to associate NCW with Jim Jones’ death cult is less than childish. It is a transparent and desperate attempt to create an untrue impression. Our communities do not pose threat on anyone, but bring peace to the lives of many. Well-educated people will never buy the slanders that are deliberately spread about The Way!
These slanders are characteristic of the uneducated and culturally challenged demagoguery that is ubiquitous in certain fundamentalist Catholic circles on island. In the NCW we read and contemplate the Scriptures every week.
PACIFIC DAILY NEWS
The Way is a renewal
The faith and strength coming from the Gospel is emboldening our firm resolve to protect our values and communities.
The Catholic lifestyle rooted in deep faith in Jesus Christ that the Neocatechumenal communities offer to the people of the archdiocese, being Catholic or not, is open to everyone. Those who resist the new ways of expressing one’s faith through a dedicated lifestyle will need to reconcile their bleak opposition with the true intentions of their hearts.
Zoltan Szekely is a resident of Yona.
Good grief, Zoltan. You don't teach the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You teach some heretic distortion. There are ample evidence on file, on record, on audiotape, on video:
Deletehttp://thoughtfulcatholic.com/?page_id=36379
What else do you want?
Dear Anonymous at 10:49 am,
DeleteThose records and audio tapes are the distorted interpretation of one man who opposes the Way. The NCW is supported and endorsed by the Pope, the Vicar of Christ. Some of the RMS priests were also ordained by the Pope.
Dear Anonymous at March 13, 2016 at 10:49 AM,
DeleteI dare you to name one single thing we teach in the NCW that is heretical. If you name just one thing, I will concede. But if you can't, then you have to concede. Deal?
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteWhatever answer he comes up with, it is going to come from Chuck White's blog.
Here are 3 heresies of the NCW teaching that you cannot deny, Zoltan:
Delete1. NCW teaches that there is no Holy Trinity, Jesus was a man.
2. You don't kneel and never take the Holy Body on the tongue.
3. You call God Yahweh, a name that is banned from pronouncing.
One of these would be sufficient to ban and expel the NCW from the church forever. Now, defend yourselves if you can.
Dear Zoltan, here is an example of the heresies of the Neocatechumenal Way, that doesn't come from Chuck White's bliog, but rather from the initial catechesis which I heard with my own ears and recorded with my own device.
DeleteSpeaking to a group of baptized Catholics who all had recently (the day before) attended Mass and had received the Body of Christ, the NCW stated:
"There is nothing good in you. NOTHING! Only selfishness and sin!"
That is heretical, Zoltan.
Here's another one:
DeleteKiko: Sin cannot offend God. Our sin cannot strip the glory from God.
Pope John Paul II: "It is therefore vain to hope that there will take root a sense of sin against man and against human values, if there is no sense of offense against God, namely the true sense of sin." (Pope John Paul II, Reconciliatio et paenitentia , 18)
CCC 1440: Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him
CCC 598: 598 In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that "sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured." Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself, the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone
Kiko: "People think that with his life, his death, and above all with his suffering Jesus has given us an example so that we will do the same. For these people, Jesus is an ideal, a role model, an example... Not so!"
DeleteCCC459 "The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness: "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me." "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me." On the mountain of the Transfiguration, the Father commands: "Listen to him!" Jesus is the model for the Beatitudes and the norm of the new law: "Love one another as I have loved you." This love implies an effective offering of oneself, after his example."
Dear Anonymous at 9:45 am,
DeleteThe NCW does not teach any of those things, which is the reason why you did not get those information from the NCW. Your source of information all came from the interpretation of those who oppose the NCW.
Diana, your denial is the proof that you are heretics. All these teachings are very heretical and this is why you deny it. If you would acknowledge then you could not be a heretical. But because you are denying, you must be the one.
Delete1. If Jesus is like a man, weak and tempted, then he cannot be God. You teach him to be man, this is how not the Trinitarian faith. Do you still deny it?
2. I saw the video at neo church. People don't kneel at all. The Holy Body is never placed on the tongue. The more you deny it, the more it is true.
3. JHWH is written anagram, because you cannot say it. You pronounce, you die. It is in the Bible. Why do you say and sing? Is it not possible that this is because of heretical views?
We cannot allow you to teach, because you are a cult, a heretical sect with the evidence and you don't even acknowledge it. This is a problem as far as I see. That's why we don't need you and your presbyter. You cannot force your heresy on us. Why don't you just leave the island and take your heresy with you?
Dear Anonymous at 6:01 pm,
DeleteYou can say that you do not need the NCW or the RMS priests. That does not matter to me at all. What matters most is that the Pope supports us and has even ordained some of the RMS priests. So, you can say whatever you want. That does not change the truth that Pope Francis supports and endorses the NCW and the RMS priests.
Dear Anonymous, the Neocatechumenal Way does not teach anything you mention. You were fooled into believing 1, 2 and 3, but all these are rubbish.
Delete1. NCW teaches that Jesus is fully God and fully human. This is hard to grasp but this is the teaching of the Church.
2. You cannot place a piece of bread on the tongue. It would be too large. You can place a wafer only on the tongue. The early Christians had never consumed wafer as the Body Of Christ. Wafer was allowed by the Church much later by technical reason only.
3. Your information is outdated. Pronouncing the anagram YHWH is offensive for Jews because it may lead to idolatry. But saying the word is not a heresy in the Catholic Church! Still, we in the NCW refrain from pronouncing it in vain.
Please, get some education about the meaning of the word heresy. You should also get your information right. We don't particularly prefer to have conversation about hearsay, gossip and superstition that you indiscriminately pick up at the jungle.
What do you mean that objecting heresy is heresy itself? This sounds insane logic to me. You have to concede that your argument is flawed. Calling on the clergy to be disobedient to their leader, as the jungle advocates, this is something much closer to heresy, don't you think?!
Dear Mr Zoltan, why is it insane to call you a heretic? Because you don't like it? My argument is not flawed at all. You deny heresy, therefore you are the one! Also Diana. Very straightforward. When we see it, we say it loud.
DeleteDisobedience to the archbishop or to the pope is not heresy because it is based on your conscience. If your conscience says otherwise, you don't need to obey any bishop! No way! The skulls of bishops lead to the hell, this is what bishop Augustine said. He knew it, because he was a bishop.
What is more, it would be heresy to obey your bishop, because he forces presbyterian heresy on you! No presbyters are needed on Guam to replace the priesthood. So why don't you just go away to an uninhabited island taking your little sect with you?
The points are not rubbish, because I pointed very clear and you refused. You refuse because you are a heresy. Otherwise you would not refuse it. What I had learned in catechism is this:
1. Jesus is fully human but not as NCW teaches. For one, you guys say Jesus had sexual desires. This is wrong and heretical! Women followed him to learn how to be faithful member of the church, not for other reason. Are you a faithful member of the church? Then don't he a heresy! Jesus is fully God, because he was resurrected from the death by God.
2. Replacing the wafer with real piece of bread is exactly what heretical! The Eucharist is spiritual, it is in your soul and spirit, the wafer is a semblance of God on your tongue. This is real presence! What else would it be? Jesus on my tongue. Please, do not fool around with serious matter.
3. Exactly that is why it is heretical to say the word Yahweh as you do. Maybe it is not in the book of heresies, published by Vatican and listing all possible heresies, but this must be very much a heretical, because so wrong! Why call that name which is Hebrew?
I don't know the theoretical part of heretics, but I don't need and don't care. When I see it, I recognize it. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. Period. You don't need to be theologian! Mr Zoltan are you a theologian? Please, do not call me to get education. I don't need to be educated on heresy, because it is not a hearsay, gossip and superstition. We are not superstitious when we call you a heretic. It is you who is superstitious and heretical.
Dear Anonymous at 12:08 pm,
DeleteI do not know where you got this ridiculous information. All the things you are accusing the NCW in here is false. Also, you have no authority to declare the NCW a heretic. Only the Vatican can do that. Bear in mind that Pope Francis supports and endorses the NCW. The Pipe will be meeting with Kiko Arguello next week to discuss sending about 50 mission families into other countries. Does this sound like the pope is treating the NCW as a heretic group???
Dear Zoltan, you said:
Delete"If you name just one thing, I will concede. But if you can't, then you have to concede. Deal?"
So I posted three comments - at 11.21, 11.38, and 11.56.
Not one of you has been able to refute them. Please now public concede and admit the NCW is heretical.
Dear Anonymous at 7:20 pm,
DeleteActually, Zoltan already refuted your comments. Please educate yourself.
Dear AnonymousMarch 15, 2016 at 12:08 PM, I just can't believe it you keep pouring this silliness here. As Diana pointed out, what you say is ridiculous! None of these things are taught at the NCW.
Delete1. Your speculation about the desires of Jesus is unfounded. We don't have anything to do with that. Jesus is fully God, He is the Son of God. The resurrection demonstrated his divinity.
2. Taking the Body of Christ in the form of unleavened bread is permitted by Rome. Who told you it was heretical?
3. Let me repeat, we don't take the name of God in vain.
Please, stop this babble about heresy that you don't have any meaningful concept of. You picked up things at the jungle that don't make any sense whatsoever. Please, educate yourself in the most basic Catholic things before you go to the Pacific Daily News to publish your incomprehensible nonsense. It is a shame to the newspaper to give publicity to your painfully illogical arguments and charges. Thanks.
Dear AnonymousMarch 14, 2016 at 11:21 AM, whatever was told you by an individual was told you by that individual. NCW does not talk to you, there are people who talk to you. Can you comprehend the difference?
DeleteChastising someone for not attaining the quality of holiness would call into attention that we need God in our lives. It is not heresy. If you look into yourself you'll find those things that block you from becoming holy. Are you ready to face those things?
Human frailty is not something that will immediately go away when you participate at mass and take the Eucharist. It is a long way to walk by.
Please, educate yourself about the meaning of the word heresy. You should get your information right. We don't particularly prefer to have conversation about hearsay, gossip and superstition that you indiscriminately pick up at the jungle.
Dear Diana,...where did Zoltan refute my comments?
DeleteDear Zoltan. Well, so far you have answered one of the three examples I gave. And, unfortunately, it is insufficient. The quote that I gave ("There is nothing good in you. NOTHING! Only selfishness and sin!") was given by a NCW catechist, in front of other NCW catechists and a (senior) NCW priest and a NCW seminarian. None of these objected or sought to clarify the comment. It stood just as it was given.
DeleteIt is no argument to say that it wasn't "official". It was as official as it could be in the context. All of those present heard it (and I have it recorded too), and there is no doubt as to the meaning. It was given in the context of the initial catechesis, and we all know that these talks are not made up on the spot, or open to ad lib additions. These talks are scripted, word-for-word accounts just as Kiko gave them. Try again please.
And while you're at it, maybe you could address the other two examples? Or are you now going to concede as you said you would?
Dear Zoltan at 8.12. You run the risk of losing whatever credibility you have left by your response to Anon of 11.21.
DeleteFirst of all, anyone who has been in or has been exposed to the NCW will know that Anon is not reporting anything new, but exactly what is told to all members of the NCW, all the way through.
Secondly, you seem to acknowledge this in the second part of your reply. For, at the start you seem to imply that it was simply an individual who told anon that, not the NCW, but then you immediately go on to defend what was said as if it were entirely proper and indeed holy to do so.
So which is it Zoltan? Is what Anon heard at the NCW catechesis ok? Or is it simply the ravings of a mad individual?
Dear Anonymous, please elaborate about your complaint:
Delete1. Which part you think is heretical?
2. What is your evidence that it is a teaching of the NCW?
As points of reference, please read the following:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-great-heresies
https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_schism_apostasy.htm
You might not realize but your views of conspiration theories may have their origin at these groups:
http://www.traditionalmass.org/issues/
http://www.novusordowatch.org/wire/francis-against-catholics.htm
It is very sad and anti-Catholic what is laid out by these heretical "traditionalist" groups. Why to follow them?
Mr. Zoltan, we know who is a heretic, because we got our good ole' Catholic education before Vatican II. Vatican II is the emanation point of heresy and every evil that raised its head in church, when the neo came into being. Where are the communion guardrails, for one? You see...
DeleteI don't care what the books write about heresy because I don't need no book to recognize. If it swims like a fish and smells like a fish, then it is very fishy. We are not superstitious. We are good folks, it is heretical to say we are no good. If you say there is nothing good in me, then you are a heresy. None of the catechists, priests, seminarians objected. This is the proof.
yes...there are a lot of good folks in hell...a lot of good priest...a lot of theologians....the only good person to walk the earth was Jesus Christ....a lot of good folks chose wrong.
DeleteDear Zoltan, you said:
Delete"If you name just one thing, I will concede. But if you can't, then you have to concede. Deal?"
So I posted three comments - at 11.21, 11.38, and 11.56.
Refute them or publicly concede and admit the NCW is heretical.
I am sorry pal, your comments do not measure up. Please, have a look at the web-sites I linked above and learn. Then try to convince anybody that it makes sense what you talk about, because you haven't done so.
DeleteYes, it is true that you cannot hurt God in a manner that you strip him from his glory, because you are too small for that. Also, our Lord Jesus is so much more than a role model. Please, come to peace with that.
The only person you might have convinced is yourself and that would be barely sufficient. If you don't need a book to read and don't need anyone to learn from to understand the meaning of the word heresy, well, it is not my fault. Peace be with you.
Dear Zoltan, "pal", here you go:
Delete"Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs. A heretic is a proponent of such claims or beliefs."
So I showed three ways that the NCW is strongly at variance with the teaching of the Church, and your only response is to confirm that variance.
Well, a blind man could see what that means....
"Vatican II is the emanation point of heresy and every evil that raised its head in church"??
DeleteGoodness me! What are you talking about, pal?? Vatican 2 was the last Church Council where the modern church was defined for the 21st century. It took some time to see the fruit of Vatican 2 as we see it now. But it is here, times are-a-changin', my friend, you cannot go back to the church before Vatican 2.
NCW is a fruit of Vatican 2, just as the new mass order, Novus Ordo. You seem to be against it. Missing the communion rail is partr of your opposition. You might be one of those church freaks from NovusOrdoWatch who call all Popes after Vatican 2 heretic! John 23rd, Paul 6th, John Paul 1st, John Paul 2nd, Benedict 16th and now Francis! They hate all these popes. Is this not crazy?
http://www.novusordowatch.org/
http://www.junglewatch.info/2016/02/did-pope-just-permit-contraception.html
http://www.guampdn.com/story/opinion/2016/03/10/no-evidence-popes-precedent-avoiding-pregnancy/81569520/
http://www.guampdn.com/story/news/2015/09/27/pope-priests-can-forgive-abortions/72368350/
My friend, you would do better to go away from NovusOrdoWatch, JungleWatch and WhatNotWatch, from all these radical fundamentalist groups, because they will mess up your mind and destroy you faith life. Peace be with you.
Dear Anonymous at 9:38 am,
DeleteYour three claims have already been refuted. If you do not believe what we tell you, that is not our problem. This argument is only going around in circles.
"Your three claims have already been refuted."
DeleteWhere?
The argument is "going around in circles" because you haven't answered. Its no good to say they have been refuted if you aren't able to show how or where.
And just for clarity's sake, I am not the same Anon that makes an argument based on the (in)validity of Vatican II. I have never attempted to call Vatican II into question in these comments. Rather, I have shown what Kiko teaches and how that varies from the Catechism. You people are simply unable to reply in any meaningful way, but instead resort to ad hominem and other fallacies. Pathetic.
Dear Anonymous at 10:30 am,
DeleteFirst of all, the things you accuse the Way only came from your own opinions. You did not cite the source of where you got those information.
Zoltan refuted your claims on March 16, 2016 at 8:01 am.
Dear Diana, please look once more. My comments were:
DeleteMarch 14, 2016 at 11:21 AM
March 14, 2016 at 11:38 AM
March 14, 2016 at 11:56 AM
Zoltan's comment of March 16, 2016 at 8:01 am pertains to Anonymous March 15, 2016 at 12:08 PM, as he himself states in that comment.
Please try again.
Dear Anonymous at 3:26 pm,
DeleteI apologize. I assumed that you were the same Anonymous who wrote on March 15 at 12:08 pm. It would be best if people use names such as "Grow up in faith" did and still remain anonymous. There are too many people named "Anonymous" that it becomes difficult to tell which anonymous wrote what? Let me find your comments and put it in a post.
Dear Anonymous at 3:26 pm,
DeleteYour comments have been placed on a post and responded by me. You can find the post in the following weblink below:
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2016/03/responding-to-anonymous-poster.html
Dear Diana re yours of March 12, 2016 at 9:39 AM
ReplyDeleteI have never said the NCW Mass was illicit; I said the "alterations" (the many additions and deletions) were illicit. If you can provide the pages in the approved Statutes of 2008 where permission has been granted for "standing during the Eucharistic Prayer, consuming Our Lord sitting down as at a common meal during Communion, Priest not consuming both the Body and Blood before the people have Communion, denying those who wish to receive Communion on the tongue, etc., I will cease trying to correct this terrible error. I remind you that I do not have to go to Rome to try to correct the NCW - Pope Francis has said that the NCW can be charitably corrected using the approved Statutes.
You must know that these additions and deletions are not in the Statutes; otherwise, you would have posted the pages long ago. Diana, does it not bother you that the many alterations, in the NCW Mass, are not mentioned in the approved Statutes of 2008???
Dear Anonymous at 4:43 pm,
DeleteThere is a very simply solution to your problem. Go to the Traditional Latin Mass, where you can receive Holy Communion only by tongue.
Anon at 4.43 is absolutely correct, and Diana's response is typically inadequatwe and patronizing. The fact that Diana perseveres with this even in the face of reasonable questions such as Anon's indicates the depths of the problem with the NCW. Diana can not even face the issues, but must continually fool herself in order to carry on. How sad.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 12:21 am,
DeleteI am not stupid. Anonymous 4:43 pm does not care to be in the Eucharist of the NCW no more than he cares to the in the Traditional Latin Mass. His agenda is simply to FORCE the NCW to follow his directives. Unless he is the Pope, the NCW will not follow him.
I can only confirm NCW is a heretical organization operating under the banner of the catholic church.
ReplyDeleteIt is not a catholic organization even if accredited by Archbishop. Archbishop himself unfortunately no longer represents unity of our church.
Dear Anonymous at 9:51 pm,
DeleteOnly the Vatican has the rightful authority to determine whether the NCW is heretical or not. The fact that Archbishop Apuron still remains the Archbishop of Guam despite the Vatican delegation that was here is good enough to show that the Vatican supports him.....otherwise they would have removed him a long time ago.
THE POPE SAID just one year ago : "Peter's task is to confirm his brothers and sisters in the faith. So you too have wanted with this gesture to ask the Successor of Peter to confirm your call, to support your mission, to bless your charism. And I want to confirm your call, support your mission and bless your charism."
DeletePope said so. So my dear Anonymous, YOU are very wrong. You are going against the Pope.
The truth is if you ask Diana, what is the difference between the Word of God and scriptures she will give you a catechesis. So let us ask, Diana, What is the difference, when you say, The Word of the Lord after a reading during a service and scriptures?
ReplyDelete