AnonymousSeptember 22, 2015 at 5:42 PM
True, but you be left behind ...you will not pass... He has more manuscripts of the scrutinies.. interpretation is already in the the manuscripts. He is just taking it out and making it public.
Dear Anonymous at 5:42 pm,
No one knows what the other left behind.....not even the catechists. How can anyone know when everything was done anonymously? The only ones who did not pass to the next level were the ones who did not show up. They remain behind until the next scrutiny. When they pass that scrutiny, then they can join their community.
No one knows what the other left behind.....not even the catechists. How can anyone know when everything was done anonymously? The only ones who did not pass to the next level were the ones who did not show up. They remain behind until the next scrutiny. When they pass that scrutiny, then they can join their community.
AnonymousSeptember 22, 2015 at 9:47 PM
Of course the catechists know what you gave up during the Rite....because they will ask you first during the scrutinies. Common Diana, you sure you have attended the Scrutinies...8 yrs walking not enough.
Dear Anonymous at 9:47 pm,
They do not ask because the right hand does not know what the left hand does. That is what they teach us in the Way. What we give is between us and God.
They do not ask because the right hand does not know what the left hand does. That is what they teach us in the Way. What we give is between us and God.
I did not publish your last comment because you chose to mock what I said about the right hand not knowing what the left hand does. You should have asked how the NCW interprets that biblical scripture. According to the Jerusalem Bible:
Be careful not to parade your uprightness in public to attract attention; otherwise you will lose all reward from your Father in Heaven. So when you give alms, do not have it trumpeted before you; this is what the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win human admiration. In truth I tell you, they have had their reward. But when you give alms, your left hand must not know what your right is doing; your almsgiving must be secret, and your Father who sees all that is done in secret will reward you. (Matthew 6:1-4)
The NCW is an itinerancy of Christian formation. This means that our priests and catechists are helping us not to judge people and to be humble. In other words, they are helping us to become better Christians. You cannot be nonjudgmental and humble if you know what everyone is giving. This is why the Bible says to make it secret. It is through secrecy that one learns not to judge and to be humble. If everyone is allowed to know what everyone gives, the person can give thousands and BRAG about it. How is that being humble?? If everyone is allowed to know what every one gives, a person can easily judge another for giving ONLY $20.
So, why do you think Christ instructed His disciples to make their almsgiving secret???? It is so they could learn to be humble and not brag like the hypocrites in the synagogues. It is so they would learn not to judge a person for giving so little because sometimes the one who gave little is the one who gave everything. How else do you teach a person not to brag or judge another in regards to almsgiving? Christ gave us the solution. That means you do not tell how much you give otherwise you will be bragging. You do not allow everyone to see how much each person give otherwise people will be judging according to the amount they gave. Only God is the one to judge us because He is the only one who can see a person's heart. In the Way, no one knows how much each brother donates so that no one can brag or make judgments.
The Second Scrutiny according to Chuck W. is not about Almsgiving, Diana, LOL. It is about the Treasure. Where is your heart...there your treasure is. $20 is not a treasure....That is not whaT IS THROWN in the bag/container during the Rite...Are you sure, Diana, you went thru the Second Scrutiny?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 9:10 am,
DeleteWhat did you think alms are? Do you know why many people have trouble giving alms during Lent? Because the alms are their treasures.
"This means that our priests and catechists are helping us not to judge people and to be humble."
DeleteOh way to go, Diana.
Here's an example of you not judging:
"Do you know why many people have trouble giving alms during Lent? Because the alms are their treasures."
Anon 9:10.
DeleteYou are ignorant.
Dear Anonymous at 10:50 am,
DeleteIt has helped me not judge my brothers about what they give because I do not know how much they contribute. However, that does not mean that I am not judgmental at all. I may not judge anyone on their monetary contribution, but I know that I have judged some of my brothers on their clothing, their hairstyle, and their singing.
Not only did Jesus know what the widow put in the poor box, he pointed it out to the Apostles.
ReplyDeleteAre you implying that the parish in its regular collections (you know, the ones that go through the books) is mistaken and contradicts the Bible, merely because it records and declares the totals collected? What nonsense. No-one is suggesting that the NCW identify who gave what amount - only that all that is collected in accounted for and put through the parish.
IN any case, when the responsible (or some other) comes back into the room after a trash bag collection, saying we only received such and such amount - we need to pass the bag again - is this not a way of shaming those present into giving more? OR conversely, when they announce that a large amount was given, but still not enough, one who gave a small amount is manipulated into thinking that everyone else gave so much more, that I better give more myself. Bear in mind that it could all be lies - the responsible, or co-responsible, could just make up a figure to suit the occasion. No one need know the actual true figure collected.
The manipulation of NCW members is another matter - for example, your catechesis on the left hand/right hand is so narrow, and is given only to manipulate the giver.
Dear Anonymous at 10:49 am,
DeleteYou asked: "Are you implying that the parish in its regular collections (you know, the ones that go through the books) is mistaken and contradicts the Bible, merely because it records and declares the totals collected?"
The NCW also records the amount collected, but no one knows who gave what amount. It is the same in the regular Sunday collections. No one knows how much each parishioner gave unless of course they wrote a check or put it in an envelop with their name on it. This is the same with the NCW. No one knows who gave what amount....unless of course if they wrote a check.
Passing the bag a second time around has nothing to do with the second scrutiny. The bag is passed around to pay a bill, for example. At a retreat in a hotel, the bag is passed a second time if the collection is smaller than the bill to be paid. In the second scrutiny, there is no bag passed around.
The parish records and discloses the amounts of collections. Does the NCW do the same? Where might we see such a disclosure? Where are the sums showing total monies and goods pledged, donated or otherwise ceded to the NCW at the scrutinies, or with respect to the "tenth"? Are there corresponding records, similarly disclosed, regarding the use, disbursement or disposal of said goods by the individual community, group of communities or leadership of the NCW?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:30 pm,
DeleteWhy are you concern about OUR money. Only the members of the NCW put in the money. We have also told you where the money goes. We collect to pay off the debts of the hotel where we spend our retreats. We also use the money for travel expenses for the itinerants, and mission families. Some of the monies are given to the parish for the use of the facilities. Some monies are also used to purchase supplies that the communities need such as the wine, bread, icons, crucifixes, patens and chalices. Why do you continue to ask the same questions over and over and over and over?
Diana, that is our money that you use to pay for mission families. That is money that should go into the parish account not your account. Our money. What is it you don't understand. You are taking our money to pay for things that do not enhance our church. Simple.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:19 pm,
DeleteHow was it YOUR money when you were never there to put anything in the trash bag? Evangelization is the mission of the Church, and that enhances our Church.
Diana, I'm not ahainst you I'm just trying to show you concerns. For example you have
DeleteEucharist. No problem. Except those who go to Eucharist of NCW place their $10 in
Trash bag. That $10 should be in parish collection. So parish loses $10 but still pays
Diocesan assessment. So parish collections really suffer. I know one priest who is now
Starving because he cannot afford to buy food. Reality is Diana clergy are without food
Basic needs here in Guam. I am having to send food to rectory because priest has no money
To buy food. He already lost about 20k in weight because only eating one meal a day.
This is how bad it is. Yet Archbishop can ear in Roy's three times a day and between
Meals in Shirley's. Makes us cry to see priests with no food to eat.
"Why do you continue to ask the same questions over and over and over and over? "
DeleteBecause they are neer satisfactorily answered, of course. The NCW is supposed to be implemented in the parish. It should therefore be no different to the other programs run through the parish, and should be similarly accounted.
For the ske of unity this could be easily accomplished,as had been demonstrated, but evidently the NCW does not want unity, but rather domination.
Dear Anonymous at 1:55 am,
DeleteThat is the reason why the Archbishop no longer answers your questions. It has already been answered. The fact that you are not satisfied with his answer is not his problem. What you are really looking for is an answer that is not the truth, but an answer that only you want.
Wrong again Diana? Alms giving is a church discipline during and outside of Lent. Second Scrutiny is about Where your Treasure is? The catechesis of the Temptation...read it (if they allow you)? If you have not done the Second Scrutiny fright, no amount of words or years in the Community will do it.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 11:01 am,
DeleteAccording to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (Capitalization is mine):
During Lent, we are asked to focus more intently on "almsgiving," which means donating MONEY OR GOODS to the poor and performing other acts of charity. As one of the three pillars of Lenten practice, almsgiving is "a witness to fraternal charity" and "a work of justice pleasing to God." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 2462).
Treasures are MONEY OR GOODS that you hold dear to your heart. I hope that becomes clear enough for you.
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteI was looking for a place to put my concern, and then God provided--with this topic!
My parents were having difficulty with their marriage after 20 yrs--my father had an affair.
They went to see the priest and after many sessions, they decided to stay together and were working on it. Through some friends, my father joined NCW and he became a changed man! (For this I am grateful!) He tried to get my mother to join him, and she went to a few of the meetings/services with him, but she was not as in to it as my father.
I asked my mother why she didn't like it, and she said she was uncomfortable with the way they conducted their services. (My mother is a very traditional person). Also, she was very unhappy with the fact that my father told his NCW group about all their personal business. So much so that she was embarrassed when she came across some of them in Payless or elsewhere. My father told her he had to disclose EVERYTHING during a part of the steps (?) in the NCW. (Not quite sure what this meant).
My mother told me that he has been donating quite a bit of money to NCW, and she was upset because they had been donating that money to help Pale´ and their church. She was under the impression it went for the same purpose. I showed her your explanation and now she knows the difference.
She also heard from a friend that sometimes people give their land or retirement or savings and now she is very scared because if my father dies, that is what she has to support her.
My questions: (1) why is it that you have to tell all your personal business? I see that although NCW has been good for my father, it is also bad because now my mother is upset about that. I just need to understand that need. (2) What exactly is asked of the NCW people? Are they asked to give up all what I said? My father told me that he HAS to donate to show that he is serious about wanting to change from his bad ways. He was very adamant that if he doesn't, it's as if he won't be accepted.
Dear Anonymous at 10:12 am,
DeleteIn the first place, whatever is disclosed in the echoes cannot be taken out of the room. How did your mother find out about what your father disclosed in the community? Was it through your father who told her himself or was it from a community member? If it was your father who told your mother, he can disclosed the information he personally said, but your father should not disclose any information about what other members say. If it was a community member who told your mother, your father should be upset about it because he knows that nothing should be taken out of the room. And the member who informed your mother should be reported to the catechist.
Now, to answer your questions.
1. You do not have to tell your personal business. You can sit there and listen to other people's echoes. The question they ask in the Eucharist is how does the readings in the scripture affect you in your life. An example I gave is this:
I felt like I am Peter in that Gospel reading. After Jesus was arrested, Peter followed Christ but he denied him three times because he was afraid that they would also arrest him. I am like that. I know that Jesus is God, but my family and I do not pray in public restaurants because we are afraid that people would judge us or look at us awkwardly. After listening to that reading, I felt like a traitor to Christ...like I denied him.
A person can echo differently than me because how the readings touched him may be different than how it touched me. For example, a person could say that he felt like Christ in the readings because of how he is being treated at school. His classmates always tease him and he's always alone. He doesn't have any friends. And so on. Your father, on the other hand, does not have to echo. The echoes are voluntary. In the Eucharist, there are usually 4-5 people who echo. The entire community does not echo in the Eucharist otherwise the Eucharist would take 5 hours long.
2. The NCW members are ASKED to follow the tripod, which is the Word, Liturgy, and Community. This means they are to attend the Eucharist, the celebration of the Word, and the convivence.
You stated: "My father told me that he HAS to donate to show that he is serious about wanting to change from his bad ways. He was very adamant that if he doesn't, it's as if he won't be accepted.
That is your father's pride speaking. In the first place, no one knows how much each brother donates. The trash bag goes around and everyone puts in something, but no one knows the amount. Afterwards, the money is counted. People would know the total amount collected but no one knows how much EACH member put in. If your father tells other people how much he donated, then he is bragging. This is not what a Christian is supposed to do. A Christian does not brag how much he puts in the bag in order for people to accept him. Naturally, the catechists would always encourage the brothers to be generous. But a person also has free will.
Not walking in the way, but I know of echoes from members. it is very dangerous to echo about your life. Once one leaves the community, sometimes all hell breaks loose.
DeleteDear Diana, I am very much confused of what you say here. "In the first place, whatever is disclosed in the echoes cannot be taken out of the room." Who said that? I don't believe there is such a rule. Jesus foretells "whatever was whispered in the dark, will be proclaimed from the housetops!" Is this not true? Did not the Lord foretell what is so?
Delete"The member who informed your mother should be reported to the catechist." What do you mean? What would your catechist do then? For me your catechist is a lay member of my church. Who gave him authority over me? When the neo mass is open to me and I enter, then what? Do you throw me out? Hey, I am a members of my parish! You cannot throw me out. So what do you do then?
If I am there sitting in to the neo mass, can I hear your "echo"? Or should I wear an earplug so that I cannot hear anything? How do you do this, dear Diana? The Lord cannot be silenced and He speaks to me through the liturgical reading of every mass. Neo mass included. So how can you silence me? When I hear your echo and I learn who you are, cannot I tell everyone? How so, Diana? How are you going to sew my mouth shut?
"In the first place, no one knows how much each brother donates." But in the envelopes in the church we place a certain amount. It is called accounting. So how is your accounting work in the neo, Diana? "The trash bag goes around and everyone puts in something, but no one knows the amount." What trash bag, Diana? Are you mocking the last two coins of the poor widow that she donated? If nobody knows the amount, then how it is not stealing? Anyone can take out of it and nobody will know it. Is this how you people get rich in the neo?! You amaze me, girl! I cannot believe you are serious.
"A Christian does not brag how much he puts in the bag." You have to tell the IRS. Otherwise it is just loose money or cheating. When I fill in my tax return in April, I always do my accounting and include the amount in the tax form. How do you this in the neo, Diana? Are you cheating on the tax form by making up numbers without accounting or evidence?
I am so confused, because the law of the land regulates me in my civil life, the law of the church regulates me in my faith life, but there is no law of the neo that could regulate me anyhow! I am my own person and I know the law I nedd to follow. Nothing else. The neo is not a law, what you follow if something you follow, but not me. Who could make me to follow what even you do not follow as you should? Pfff. Thanks!
Joane Santos
Dear Anonymous at 4:32 pm,
DeleteThis is why echoes are voluntary and whatever is said should never leave the room.
Dear Joane,
DeleteYou stated: ""In the first place, whatever is disclosed in the echoes cannot be taken out of the room." Who said that? I don't believe there is such a rule."
Have you ever gone to an AA (Alcohol Anonymous) meeting? They have that rule. When you tell reveal to someone what a person said in their echoes, that person you told can tell another person. And then that person will tell another and another and another and another. What do you think will happen to that story? Do you actually think each person will be telling the same story? By the time it gets to the 15th person, the story would have changed into something else, and it becomes nothing but rumors.
You asked: ""The member who informed your mother should be reported to the catechist." What do you mean? What would your catechist do then?"
Hopefully, they would explain to that person the consequences of taking echoes out of the room just as I explained it to you above! Then perhaps, that ignorant person would understand how false rumors are started.
You stated: ""A Christian does not brag how much he puts in the bag." You have to tell the IRS. Otherwise it is just loose money or cheating."
Are you saying that you have no problems bragging to people about how much a person puts in the bag? Do you brag about your income and how much you give to your parish to other people, Joane?
You stated: "But in the envelopes in the church we place a certain amount. It is called accounting."
Do you every single person in your parish put in envelope with their names on it Joane? What about the people who just throw in cash in the collection basket, Joane? Did they also put their names on the cash they throw in so you can actually name the person and the amount that person gave??? Funny isn't it......that the way you do things in the parish regarding the collection basket is similar to how the Way does it with the trash bags. Do you know why it is similar, Joane??? Because the Neocatehcumenal Way is CATHOLIC.