grow up in faithAugust 18, 2015 at 5:37 PM
I agree with gi hagat August 18, 2015 at 12:31 PM who wrote this at Junglewatch to Tim Rohr:
"PEOPLE... Zoltan wrote: ZOLTAN: "Mr. Taitano's simplistic opinion piece..." and Tim Rohr wrote: "ME: There he goes again. Chamorros are "gullible," "simplistic," easily "incited." According to Zoltan, Chamorros are unable to think for themselves, discern for themselves, find the truth for themselves:
As I read this, Rohr insulted me (not speaking for the whole Chamorro) by referring to "Chamorros". Don't you see how he (Rohr) can twists words around to make us look stupid?. Come on people read carefully and see how Rohr tries to manipulate our minds. I don't defend that guy Zoltan, I am defending myself - from Rohr's remarks."
Bravo dear gi hagat, you exactly hit the nail on the head! I checked what Mr. Zoltan exactly wrote to Tim Rohr in the PDN comment section. Here:
"After the meeting I made a personal appeal to you, based on our previous friendship, that you cut back flaming words and inflammatory language in you rhetoric. You flat out rejected my appeal, thus aligning yourself with the most radical voices of your blog that you own, maintain and polish every day in order to feed, nourish and incite the gullible with gossip, hearsay and superstition for your own entertainment."
http://www.guampdn.com/story/opinion/2015/08/14/push-back--radical-voices--both-concerned-catholics--way/31686503/
As I understand. Mr. Zoltan made a friendly gesture to Tim who rejected him in a very unfriendly manner. Mr. Zoltan is calling the readers of Junglewatch gullible and easily manipulated and not the Chamorros! It is Tim Rohr who is talking about Chamorros this way when he says: "CHAMORROS ARE UNABLE TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES, DISCERN FOR THEMSELVES, FIND THE TRUTH FOR THEMSELVES". These are NOT the words of Mr. Zoltan, based on his comment quoted above. I made a search and could not find any words like these from Mr. Zoltan! It is coming straight from a frustrated Tim Rohr, who is uttering these unjustifiable charges against Chamorros by his own words!
By the way, this is the trouble with Junglewatch and the reason I stopped writing there. There is no speculation or opinion there anymore, only pure and clear slander coming from frustration that is unleashed against unsuspecting victims, in this case against Mr. Zoltan. It is a classic example from the book for radicals that we had discussed in another topic: use vituperation freely as long as it causes measurable damage to anyone! The price you pay, in this case the scourging up of nationalistic fury and violence against those who are considered of different national origin, does not matter. Actually, this is exactly that makes the whole thing even better for Tim Rohr: he revels in nationalistic fury and violent language as long as it brings his much desired rebellion, revolt and revolution closer.
Be it far from me to defend Mr. Zoltan. I had called NCW members repeatedly for gestures of mutual peace and good will. He had never answered me. He seems to be one of those NCW members who think that true Catholic faith exists solely in NCW. I do not like this attitude, but it should not be a reason that I try to manipulate the Chamorro people to commit violence against Mr. Zoltan, who was invited to Guam to live and teach here, as I understand. There are limitations of what a Catholic faithful can and cannot do to a fellow Catholic faithful in good conscience.
Gi hagat was correct. Zoltan only mentioned Mr. Taitano's opinion as being simplistic. Tim Rohr twisted it around and misleads his readers into believing that Zoltan was referring to all Chamorros. It was actually Tim who said "Chamorros." The majority of people who post in the jungle are hardcore extremists, which is why I do not post any comments there. I cannot stress enough to Zoltan and other NCW members that trying to reason with hardcore radicals is useless. Even the U.S. will not negotiate with terrorists so why would anyone want to try and reason with a radical? They are getting more and more frustrated because Rome remains silent and they have accomplished absolutely nothing.
In September, the Pope will be visiting the United States. In October, there will be more good news for the NCW. :-)
"PEOPLE... Zoltan wrote: ZOLTAN: "Mr. Taitano's simplistic opinion piece..." and Tim Rohr wrote: "ME: There he goes again. Chamorros are "gullible," "simplistic," easily "incited." According to Zoltan, Chamorros are unable to think for themselves, discern for themselves, find the truth for themselves:
As I read this, Rohr insulted me (not speaking for the whole Chamorro) by referring to "Chamorros". Don't you see how he (Rohr) can twists words around to make us look stupid?. Come on people read carefully and see how Rohr tries to manipulate our minds. I don't defend that guy Zoltan, I am defending myself - from Rohr's remarks."
Bravo dear gi hagat, you exactly hit the nail on the head! I checked what Mr. Zoltan exactly wrote to Tim Rohr in the PDN comment section. Here:
"After the meeting I made a personal appeal to you, based on our previous friendship, that you cut back flaming words and inflammatory language in you rhetoric. You flat out rejected my appeal, thus aligning yourself with the most radical voices of your blog that you own, maintain and polish every day in order to feed, nourish and incite the gullible with gossip, hearsay and superstition for your own entertainment."
http://www.guampdn.com/story/opinion/2015/08/14/push-back--radical-voices--both-concerned-catholics--way/31686503/
As I understand. Mr. Zoltan made a friendly gesture to Tim who rejected him in a very unfriendly manner. Mr. Zoltan is calling the readers of Junglewatch gullible and easily manipulated and not the Chamorros! It is Tim Rohr who is talking about Chamorros this way when he says: "CHAMORROS ARE UNABLE TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES, DISCERN FOR THEMSELVES, FIND THE TRUTH FOR THEMSELVES". These are NOT the words of Mr. Zoltan, based on his comment quoted above. I made a search and could not find any words like these from Mr. Zoltan! It is coming straight from a frustrated Tim Rohr, who is uttering these unjustifiable charges against Chamorros by his own words!
By the way, this is the trouble with Junglewatch and the reason I stopped writing there. There is no speculation or opinion there anymore, only pure and clear slander coming from frustration that is unleashed against unsuspecting victims, in this case against Mr. Zoltan. It is a classic example from the book for radicals that we had discussed in another topic: use vituperation freely as long as it causes measurable damage to anyone! The price you pay, in this case the scourging up of nationalistic fury and violence against those who are considered of different national origin, does not matter. Actually, this is exactly that makes the whole thing even better for Tim Rohr: he revels in nationalistic fury and violent language as long as it brings his much desired rebellion, revolt and revolution closer.
Be it far from me to defend Mr. Zoltan. I had called NCW members repeatedly for gestures of mutual peace and good will. He had never answered me. He seems to be one of those NCW members who think that true Catholic faith exists solely in NCW. I do not like this attitude, but it should not be a reason that I try to manipulate the Chamorro people to commit violence against Mr. Zoltan, who was invited to Guam to live and teach here, as I understand. There are limitations of what a Catholic faithful can and cannot do to a fellow Catholic faithful in good conscience.
Gi hagat was correct. Zoltan only mentioned Mr. Taitano's opinion as being simplistic. Tim Rohr twisted it around and misleads his readers into believing that Zoltan was referring to all Chamorros. It was actually Tim who said "Chamorros." The majority of people who post in the jungle are hardcore extremists, which is why I do not post any comments there. I cannot stress enough to Zoltan and other NCW members that trying to reason with hardcore radicals is useless. Even the U.S. will not negotiate with terrorists so why would anyone want to try and reason with a radical? They are getting more and more frustrated because Rome remains silent and they have accomplished absolutely nothing.
In September, the Pope will be visiting the United States. In October, there will be more good news for the NCW. :-)
Thanks, Diana, you cut the end but it is still fair enough!
ReplyDeleteDear grow up in faith,
DeleteOops! My bad. I will go back and include the end.
"There is no speculation or opinion there anymore, only pure and clear slander coming from frustration that is unleashed against unsuspecting victims."
ReplyDeleteThis is true word from you, dear grow up in faith, that I am glad to read. You see we are not so far away from each other, after all. Timmy is using the very same mechanism over and over again, it does not matter if he is after the Archbishop, after Diana, after Fr. Pius, after Fr. Adrian, after Fr. Edivaldo, after Fr. Harold, after Mr. Zoltan or after anybody else.
Lies, intimidation and verbal abuse. This is him, Tim Rohr, standing in front of us. Then comes the attempts of humiliation, extortion and blackmailing. A true criminal mind is he saying in his blog August 17, 2015 at 9:39 AM:
"Quit the neo crap and be a true Catholic Zoltan and all these problems will go away. Then you can start promoting the truth and donate to the CCOG from your UOG salary. The grass is much greener on the Catholic side and not on the dirt and scam of the Neo."
Now you see why jungle people commit all their indecency: they simply fear the "Neo"! Lol!
Proverbs 6; 16-19
ReplyDeleteThere are six things that Yahweh hates, seven that he abhors; a haughty look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that weaves wicked plots, feet that hurry to do evil, a false witness who lies with every breath, and one who sows dissension among brothers.
We can comment of Rohr's actions.....but is it right to judge his character?
I believe he needs our prayers
JSB
Yes, dear Mr. JSB, because whoever sows dissent and discord, will reap fighting and war. Blood is coming out of the eye of the storm. But whoever says blood is coming out of the eye of the woman is sowing dissent and discord. This person has already been condemned because he is a dissent and a discord by will. Who is this person? I don't know, but Donald Trump is not even a Catholic and the neo has moved out of the church building. This is what I read and see, because of my intermittent Internet access.
DeleteThe Lord says, call God my Father who is in heaven. It is His Father and my Father and your Father, because He is in heaven. He is Jesus Christ who died and was raised and will come again, maybe in my lifetime. Call any other name, and lo whom you call is NOT Jesus anymore. The eye of the storm sucked Him up into blood on the cross swirling up to heaven. His seven wounds and the whole universe are all getting red because of the thick blood pouring out of His wounds and coloring the world by His own color. He is my Savior. Please, do not take offense.
Joane Santos
Never a offense taken Ms. Joane
DeleteWhat we say sometimes represent what we want people to think of us. What we practice as Christians is another.
It is not because Jesus died on the cross for our sins; it is that he has risen; conquered death. Showing us the way to salvation from birth to physical death. Showing us the power of God.
Through our human intellect we can read and understand scriptures for Geneses to Revelation but it is only through the grace of God that we live it.
No offense
JSB
Yes, we live our lives submersed in the blood of the Lamb through the grace of Jesus Christ who is the Great Amen! He was thrown into the pit of death and His blood was shed as a ransom for many. It is not His precious blood gushing out of His side that maintains the world round? Without Him we are all flat sinners. Should not we all doom without His blood washing us radiant white?
DeleteThe Lamb shed His blood for ink in our pen so to rewrite the history of the whole universe in red ink of suffering. Look at the face of the lowly, of those who are in pain and anguish! Is it not the same as the face of Jesus on the crucifix? He expired giving up His tortured soul for the remission of sin. Are we not soaked in His blood from head to toe? He washes away the virtual world, the fake reality around us to replace it with anew! How can you look at Him as still be?
I suffer the seven wounds of Jesus every day in my life. The torturing visions of St. Teresa of Avila are penetrating under my skin. The wounds of the Lamb are fluctuating red hot in every part of my body, soul, spirit and mind. He shed His blood on me to wash me clean. But am I? How can I waste the blood of the Lamb on vanity and nothingness? I pray day and night that His blood makes me fresh and new in hope and faith so I can lay down my life for my beloved. What does this tell you, dear Mr. JSB?
Joane Santos
Dear JSB, let me ask you a question. You say that it is not "because Jesus died on the cross for our sins", but that "it is only through the grace of God that we live it".
DeleteSo, where does this grace of come from - the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, or the Resurrection?
Suffering is the way of the cross Ms Joane. He endured this suffering in silence not for his salvation but for others...for us. For his love for man; his suffering and death show us the true meaning of suffering
DeleteMany people today run away from their suffering; their anxieties....why....it is easy. They don't any part of; be a witness to or experience the pain, the cost, the worries of suffering.
Guam has many Christians...Catholics we say? Why are abortions still being performed on Guam? Why are people still committing suicide? Our prison and courts systems are overflowing. abandon children in CPS; young girls giving birth in their teens; young fathers running away; parents helping them run away? Why is family violence so prevalent? I can go on and on....
Some famous person once said....love is the gift that grows. If we say we have the love of Jesus Christ in us; if we say we have the Spirit of Jesus Christ; then this love needs to extend outward beyond ourselves to the suffering.
I believe Christ wants me to lay down my life for the brother...the sister. I cannot tell you want your suffering tells me.....I don't know you
JSB
Dear Anonymous at 1:02 pm,
DeleteGrace comes from the Holy Spirit. It is a gift of God. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit." Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.
Dear JSB and Diana at 3:13. Neither of you answered the question. Let me put it another way. Do we benefit from the sacrifice on the cross, or from the resurrection?
DeleteI ask this because of JSB's comment that it is not "because Jesus died on the cross for our sins".
Dear Anonymous at 5:37 pm,
DeleteDo not take JSB's comments out of context. If you read JSB's comment at 2:00 pm above, he spoke about what Christ's death and suffering did for us on the cross. Grace is another topic. It is a gift of the Holy Spirit. The resurrection of Christ is the most important thing that happened in Christianity. If there was no resurrection, there would be no salvation for mankind. In fact, we celebrate Easter every year. Easter is about Christ's resurrection. We also call "Good Friday" (the day of His death) "good" because we already know that His death will bring redemption to mankind when He conquers death at His resurrection. As St. Paul said, if there is no resurrection, then his preaching is useless. Christ's death and resurrection brought redemption to man. And grace is God's gift to us. Do you agree or disagree with these statements about grace and Christ's death and resurrection?
Dear Diana, even St. Paul can be not right some time. Yes, it is possible. The only source of grace is the suffering and death of Jesus. Or, as Joane said, the "blood of the Lamb". Without Jesus dying on the cross, nothing would have been accomplished. But with His suffering and blood soaking death everything has been already accomplished, because of His blood. The voluntary shedding of His blood that He did brought us infinite amount of grace sufficient for saving the wide world!
DeleteIt is not true that without resurrection there is no salvation. The opposite is the truth: resurrection is only possible because of salvation accomplished on the cross. The cross is everything, the empty tomb is only a bonus for the weak. Whatever St. Paul teaches and became part of the one and true Catholic teaching, would remain valid even if Jesus had never been risen! Why do you think resurrection was necessary if not by the mercy of God for the mankind?
Dear Anonymous at 6:40 pm,
DeleteWhen you stated that St. Paul cannot be right in reference to what he said to the Corinthians regarding the resurrection, then it is you who is in error. The Catholic Church teaches that the Holy Bible is the inerrant word of God. Those books were canonized by the Church because the Church believed that those books were God-breathed. Therefore, when St. Paul said that if there is no resurrection, then his preaching is useless (see 1 Co. 15:12-19), it is the truth. Everyone can die, but only Christ can resurrect from the dead. It was the resurrection that conquered death and brought salvation to mankind. The Passover means passing over death.
And now we get to one of the major problems with the errant teaching of the NCW. It is the death of Christ on the cross that brought us the grace to be saved. The resurrection is thew fruit of that death on the cross, and while it is true as St Paul said that our preaching would be in vain if there was no resurrection, it is not through the resurrection that we are saved. The resurrection is rather the sign of our salvatoin and our hope of eternal life in Christ.
DeleteThe NCW teaches something different about the economy of salvation and the merits of Christ's death, emphasizing the resurrection to the detriment of the memory of the passion and death of Our Lord. This is why the Mass has become a banquet in the NCW, rather than the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary. All of the NCW errors stem from this misjudgement.
Anonymous August 20, 2015 at 6:40 PM
DeleteDear Diana, even St. Paul can be not right some time. Yes, it is possible.
Are we now to question the wisdom of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit?
How can we begin to bridge the division within the Church with people who apparently do not believe in God's infinite wisdom and actions?
Unbelievable
JSB
Dear Mr. JSB, J. Bautista, you tell me: "I cannot tell you want your suffering tells me.....I don't know you."
DeleteDo you see how much you look don't on me? My suffering has nothing to do with me! It is not my suffering, it is the suffering of the Lord in me. You are right in saying you don't know me. Should I know you? I don't think it is necessary. Are we not talking about the blood of the Lamb? Are we not suffering the wounds of Jesus? Is it not St. Teresa of Avila who teaches us to get our souls experience the fullness of the mystery of the cross? Shouldn't we all live out lives by being immersed into the blood of the Innocent One?
When you do not open up for St. Teresa, you do not open up for Jesus. She is a beloved saint in heaven interceding for us. She is a woman who overcame men. Doesn't her presence at the feet of God and her intercession feel reassuring for you? Yes, abortion, crime, prison, family violence, etc. are prevalent in our communities. We defy God freely every day by choosing sin rather than purity. We give reason to our precious Lord to die on the cross over and over again. Does it not split your heart in pain, as a machete in the hand of the murderer? Aren't we ourselves the devil in the world?
For me the seven open wounds of Jesus and their never ending bleeding onto us tell the infinite love of Him who came to save me, whose outpouring blood became the nourishment of a hungry and vociferous world. His wounds tell me that I only have blood in my veins because it was Him who bled His own blood into me! Oh, how much I burn for His blood!
"My flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me." (John 6: 55-57)
So what does this tell you about yourself and about your relation to God, dear Mr. JSB?
Joane Santos
Tim Rohr is bragging that he managed to place and publish near 30 articles in the local newspapers, denouncing the Archbishop, in less than one half of a year. Yes, he must be a genius... or something else? Well, he delivers juicy and scandalous half truths, lies and outright slanders to the secular media every day to entertain the godless. Of course, they love him, considering he religiously follows their secular anti-Catholic agenda.
ReplyDeleteWhy did Tim Rohr become the number one love bird for the local secular media? Because he produces endless tabloid quality trash talk that is always a bonus for cheap amusement. Junglewatch became what always was to be: a cheap secular tabloid in the local entertainment business.
Amen to Anon 7:59 am. It is true, Tim Rohr has a big bill to answer to God at the end of his early life. Was it really all worth it to tear down and smear the Shepherd of the Flock of the Catholic Church in Guam all just to please his priest friends (Gofigan/Benavente) who broke their vows of obedience to the bishop? I am no friend of the media - and since the media is an enemy of the church and Rohr is a friend of the enemy of the Church, this makes Rohr an enemy of the Church. And he goes to his Latin Mass with Fr, Forbes religiously? There is something wrong here - a man with an aficionado for the Tridentine Mass of yore with all the trappings of clericalism and mysticism, so closely associated with adherence to the magisterium of the Church. And this same man is an enemy of the church? Hmmmm. Does schizophrenia ring a bell? Does narcissism play a role here? Hmmmm it would be interesting to analyze the psychosis or neurosis of Mr. Rohr.
ReplyDeleteNow that Rome won't listen to him, he's on a rampage of outright fury and anger - wahhhhh wahhhhh wahhhhh!
He brings much shame on all the open and secret societies he is a card holding member of.
DeleteAnon 1:02am.
DeleteIt is true, Tim Rohr has a big bill to answer to God at the end of his early life. Was it really all worth it to tear down and smear the Shepherd of the Flock of the Catholic Church in Guam all just to please his priest friends (Gofigan/Benavente) who broke their vows of obedience to the bishop?---AAA broke his promise to his priests...not the other way around....LOL!
I am no friend of the media - and since the media is an enemy of the church and Rohr is a friend of the enemy of the Church, this makes Rohr an enemy of the Church. ----be specific...which media is the enemy of the church???? KUAM, PDN, MV...WHICH ONE???....I guess the CHURCH should not be advertising to these as per your comments??? what about the BOG...which supports abortion.
And he goes to his Latin Mass with Fr, Forbes religiously? There is something wrong here - a man with an aficionado for the Tridentine Mass of yore with all the trappings of clericalism and mysticism, so closely associated with adherence to the magisterium of the Church. And this same man is an enemy of the church? Hmmmm. Does schizophrenia ring a bell? Does narcissism play a role here? Hmmmm it would be interesting to analyze the psychosis or neurosis of Mr. Rohr. --Just to clarify if you understand....Rohr is concerned about the CHURCH...HE IS THE ENEMY OF THE PERSON..APURON...not the CHURCH...WHO IS THE CHURCH..NOT APURON...
Now that Rome won't listen to him, he's on a rampage of outright fury and anger - wahhhhh wahhhhh wahhhhh!---do you want to join him on this?
Dear Anonymous at 3:57 pm,
DeleteThe Bishops are the heads of their particular church and the local vicar of Christ. All Bishops are the successors of the Apostles. Anyone who is against the Archbishop is against the Church and Christ. It is obvious that Tim Rohr has lost faith in the Vatican that he is willing to take up arms without waiting for the Vatican. This already signifies that Rohr has lost faith in the one, holy, Catholic Church.
Tim Rohr's paranoia is more and more apparent as he is going down slowly. He is yelling now on and humiliating his own followers who have to defend themselves from his rage. Sure sign of his mental state devolving.
DeleteAnonymous August 20, 2015 at 1:45 PM
No Tim, I am not a plant! I am not trying to set you up. I know there are 13 volumes but have no idea if they were approved that is why I asked the question.
-Breakfast at Tiffany's
Tim Rohr August 20, 2015 at 3:06 PM
... very hard to determine when comments are anonymous. The same question had been asked before and when I answered "yes", I was then asked who was I to question Rome's approval. ...
The jungle group went totally lunatic. They claim to be a Catholic group, but never ever talk about Jesus Christ or God. They claim to be Christians and Christianity is about loving your neighbor, but all they do is mocking, accusing and hating people without any reason. Are they Christian? Are they Catholic? Perhaps in their lunatic minds...
DeleteThis is the problem: what they have in their minds has nothing to do with truth or the real world. They have lost all connection to what is outside, beyond themselves. This is the reason they cannot even scratch the surface of reality. Now they wonder why is Rome silent about their plights. Hey, wake up members of the jungle group, your complaints will never be heard unless you abandon you lunatic ways, come back to your senses and get familiar with the real world again. The real world that is the creation of God!
Don't duck your head in the sand, jungle people! Come out of your delusion and face the real music of a vibrant world full of excitement and godly pleasure. Loving God does not mean you have to be sad and harbor bitterness in your heart. Just the opposite, rejoice! Flush out the clog of murmur from your heart and let the joy of the Lord flow freely in you towards your sisters and brothers in Christ!
Anonymous at 5:46 PM..... you hit the nail on the head. I wrote to the jungle and said. all you talk about is all this hate for the Bishop. do you ever talk about GOD. and no reply.
DeleteBut if you talk bad about the Bishop and they will reply. Tim Rohr book call that why I'm catholic????
Anonymous 5:46 and 11:47--
DeleteNever? You are both seeing only what you want to see. On both blogs there are posts who defend their positions by citing biblical passages with references to Jesus and God. And on both blogs there are the posts that do nothing but put down the other.
5:46, you say "come out of your delusion, don't duck your head in the sand"...funny, I read that in Jungle addressed to Neos.
11:47, you say you asked if they ever talk about God. Dear, that blog exists because they believe their way of honoring God is being threatened.
Both blogs exist to defend their position. And on both, you have to wade through some nonsense to find out what they are truly trying to say.
I, for one, am having a hell of a time doing just that!
Really? Here are some latest post titles from the jungle:
DeleteBILLS 102 AND 109 AND APURONIC CHEST POUNDING
PROPPING UP APURON...AGAIN
THE LOSERS ON THE HILL
NO WEBSITE
THE "MILIEU FOR A NEW AESTHETIC"
WHAT IS A NEOCATECHUMENARY?
WE ARE NOT FOOLED!
SHOW US YOUR CATECHETICAL DIRECTORY
THE AGAT BOY(S)
THE POLITICAL HISTORY OF KIKO ARUGELLO AND THE NCW
THE "PRETENDER" TO APURON AND THE NEW NEOCATECHUMENARY
Enough? All of these deal with the Archbishop, so we see the obsession. Lol! But name just any single one these, I pray, that has any mentioning of Jesus Christ or God?! There is none! I mean zero, nada, zylch! The jungle is not Catholic and not even Christian. It is a political blog for junkies.
Anon at 7:23--Do you not get that they are defending the Catholic Church's beliefs as they see it? Again, these blogs exist to get their points across. They believe Apuron is not doing his duty as the appointed head of the Catholics on Guam, so they attack him. They believe Neo not following what they believe is the "right " way to worship, so they attack Kiko and followers.
DeleteThe trick for us who are trying to figure out all this mess for ourselves, is to weed through all the "noise" to see the basis of their arguments. Jungle provides documents as does Diana. Both blogs Catholics, both trying hard to make everyone believe they are legit.
I sure hope you guys there on island don't do so much fighting that you end of destroying the Catholic faith on Guam before I return back to my island!
Dear Anonymous at 5:22 pm,
DeleteThey are not defending the Catholic Church. They are trying to destroy the Church and turn it into something they want to control. Their Catholic beliefs and doctrines are still intact. These beliefs and doctrines are found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You do not see the NCW burning the Catechisms, do you?
The duty that they wish the Archbishop to do is to dine and travel with the "non-Neo" priests. This attitude comes from jealousy. What the NCW does at 7:30 pm every Saturday evening has no direct affect on them; yet, they want the NCW not to celebrate the Mass at that time. We have the support of the Pope, and that is what matters because the Pope is the Vicar of Christ. The Archbishop informed everyone that Pope Francis supports him, but the jungle does not believe anything the Archbishop says. In the jungle, they mocked him even for doing the right thing when he stands against the laws passed by the Guam Legislature regarding same sex marriage.
Dear Diana @8:21--
DeleteAs I said, they are defending "...as they see it." Their interpretation. I have read your position and see that you really do believe NCW has the backing of the Pope to do all that you do.
That's my point: both of the BLOGS exist to defend their interpretations, and not necessarily to preach the Gospel, even though oftentimes the Gospel is used to defend a position. Just trying to clarify my comment.
I will say one thing, Diana--In response to your statement that the Archbishop informed everyone but the jungle doesn't believe..-- I, too, would have a problem believing something just because the Archbishop said it is so. Living abroad for many years has exposed me to Bishops who have done wrong to their congregants, so now I am skeptical. "Show me the written word" is what I go by now.
I do pray that all this is settled by the time I return home! May God Bless Guam!
Ha-ha-ha, anon 5:22! All I was asking for is a single mentioning of Jesus Christ or God in that blog. There is none! How can you claim that Junglewatch has anything to do with faith??
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:56 am,
DeleteYes, there are bishops who have done things that are immoral such as the sex abuse scandal. But there are many Bishops who have not done anything wrong. I have always said that if you feel that the NCW is not following the liturgy, you can always write to the Vatican. The liturgy is something that we do only in the NCW and it does not have any impact on anyone outside of it. Nevertheless, you can always contact the Vatican. Anything the Archbishop gives is being twisted around. So providing the truth would be useless. Why? Just listen to what Tim Rohr is saying. He told Patti Arroyo on radio that all the Archbishop had to do was tell John Toves that he did not molest his cousin, and that is it. He claimed that the Archbishop never made that statement. That is false. It was on KUAM news that the Archbishop denied the allegations. But Tim is claiming he did not simply because the Archbishop did not say what Tim wanted him to say word for word.
Archbishop Apuron unfortunately did not deny the allegations made. This is all that is required to close this matter. Archbishop Apuron must stand up like Bill Clinton and say " I did not have sex with that woman." Very easy Diane. Call KUAM to San Ramon call the family into the chancery and tell them - the time has come for honor of the archdiocese I did not have sex with that woman. He must look into the lense of the camera and say it with meaning. Only then will he be believed.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 5:22 pm,
DeleteThe Archbishop did deny the sexual allegation. In fact, it is found in the KUAM news. According to KUAM:
They are allegations the archbishop has vehemently denied and in statement with KUAM News last Friday he planned to file a defamation lawsuit.
http://www.kuam.com/story/27543869/2014/12/04/john-toves-unable-to-meet-with-archbishop
The Archbishop had already denied the sex allegation charge. It was reported in KUAM news. The evidence is right there in the news report.
Ok Diane. You may be right. However, Archbishop must call the media into his office and tell the children that the time has come for honor of the church and honor of the nation that we must deny such allegations. Issue is guilty or not guilty we don't care. We do care about anxiety being caused in families as a result of all this. Families are divided . How do you think men women children feel seeing him on the sanctuary with this doubt in mind. Did he did he not. We all heard stories and they all resurrected again. We want peace Diane. We not against neo but we are against damage archbishop is leading families into. Please understand.
Delete
DeleteArchbishop needs to now file a defamation law suit and bring this situation to a close. It is breaking families causing family arguments general bad blood . Needs to stop because out of control. Catholics are hurting . It must stop.
Dear Anonymous at 7:38 pm,
DeleteWhy should the Archbishop call the media into his office to say what he already said to KUAM eight months ago? You did not listen the first time.
Archbishop must tell the media again he is not guilty. Only way to bring this to an end. Call the children and tell them the time has come to protect sacred honor of our church. Bring media into chancery tell the people truth. This ony way to end the stale air blowing.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 12:15 am,
DeleteI already showed you the news report, and all you had to do was pass on the news report showing that the Archbishop already denied the allegations 8 Months ago. And that would have been the end of it. But that is not enough, which makes me wonder exactly what your true intentions are. You are not interested in listening to what the Archbishop say. Your goal is to publicly humiliate him even further.
They are allegations the archbishop has vehemently denied and in statement with KUAM News last Friday
Deletewhere is the "FRIDAY" article
Dear Anonymous at 11:11 am,
DeleteThe evidence is there in the news report that the Archbishop denied the allegation in a statement to KUAM. You did not believe the first time; therefore, you will still not believe even if he came out a second time. The evidence has already been shown to you. Thus, the matter of whether the Archbishop denied the sex allegation is closed. He denied it 8 months ago.
http://it.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/08/17/per_la_prima_volta,_plenaria_del_ccee_in_terra_santa/1165555
ReplyDeleteJungle has a penchant for megalomaniac assertions. Now they claim they represent the Chamorro. Yeah, exactly, Chamorros like Tim Rohr, Chuck White and "Frenchie". Lol! Tim is desperate to multiply himself by anonymous comments, but he still amounts to nothing. Chamorro society remains calm, dignified and untouched by jungle insanity.
ReplyDeleteI am not jungle watcher or a NCW member. I am an average catholic in the pews who follows the battle ground of our church. I do not take sides but I have come to see the deep division of our church. This was never as clear as during the jubilee mass last weekend of four mercy sisters. The division on the sanctuary was shouting in the faces of the congregation. I do not know who is right and who is wrong. But what I do know is Archbisnop has divided this church. I do not believe it is over the NCW. Infact I believe the NCW has some good points in building small community Eucharistic celebrations . It is now more about the life of the archbishop before the NCW arrived on island. His life was not led to the moral standards church asks of her priests. This is the concern . Not the NCW more the Moral life of Archbishop now in question.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 3:13 pm,
DeleteWhen you say the "moral life of the Archbishop" that is in question and causing the division, could you be specific. Exactly what do you mean by his moral life? Can you give an example of what immorality that you think the Archbishop has committed?
failed on both.......Conscience and Virtues!!!!
Deletehere is your answer, Diana.
Dear Anonymous at 4:01 pm,
DeleteYou are still not specific. Please be specific. What immoral act did the Archbishop commit? For example, did he murder someone? And if yes, who did he murder? This is what I mean by specific. Conscience and virtues is a very vague answer. Be specific and concrete.
Allowing NCW to run the archdiocese, decided to kick out priest who are not in agreement with him.
DeleteNot wanting to answer the questions raised by CCOG.
How do i know? God said so through God's people.
That is the IMMORALITY. It is not only about sexual allegations.
Dear Anonymous at 2:06 pm,
DeleteThere is nothing immoral about removing a disobedient priest. There is also nothing immoral about not wanting to answer questions raised by CCOG. Why? Because we all have a right to remain silent or to speak. We decide.
As for the sexual allegations......I live in a country where a person is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
There is everything immoral about removing a good priest. No disobedient priest should be removed. What is wrong with disobedience. This is a democracy free speech . Where I co,e from we encourage disobedience as intellectual assent to higher moral authority God himself. You Diana do not understand meaning of academic truth freedom, justice, truth, democracy. Regarding sexual allegations four people reported him for these crimes. Only time willl tell truth.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 12:52 am,
DeleteNo disobedient priest should be removed??? Try disobeying your boss at work and see if you will be removed. Get real!
In Diana's mind, all disobedience is all or nothing, so let us ask, Martin Luther Jr civil disobedience is immoral, Mohandas Gandhi's disobedience is wrong, Sojourner Truth desire of equality is immoral, the Filipino people's disobedience to the government during the dictatorship is immoral.
DeleteWhere r u from Diana? Malaysia?
Deaf Anonymous at 10:56 am,
DeleteHow did you confuse civil disobedience with disobeying an order to terminate the employment of an employee whose name is on the sex offender's list?
He did terminate the employment of that man. You keep banging on about this, but he actually obeyed the instruction.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:16 pm,
DeleteTermination of employment does not mean taking away ONLY the paycheck. It also means taking away the title and duties that comes with that pay check. Lastimosa was supposed to be fired in 2011, but an updated April 4, 2013 website of the Santa Barbara Church showed that Mr. Lastimosa still holds the same title "Director of Facilities Management" (See the weblink below):
http://www.thecatholicdirectory.com/directory.cfm?fuseaction=display_site_info&siteid=100076
Lastmosa was still doing the same duties as he did when he was paid a paycheck. In fact, the investigation showed that he was acting in official capacity as he picked up supplies for the Church. He also had access to the church in that he was in possession of the keys.
ReplyDeleteConscience, virtues, moral life. As was discussed on yesterday's radio show. Morallity integrity substantial concerns.
Dear Anonymous at 5:59 pm,
DeleteFor the sake of readers who missed yesterday's radio show, you need to be specific and concrete. Conscience, virtues, and moral life are broad subjects. As for virtue, there are many virtues. Which one are you referring to?
ReplyDeleteConcern is Guam is governed by an Archbishop no longer respected trusted by four thousand Catholics. I don't know what archbishop did as a priest. But what I do know is the past years he has lost moral character to lead our island church. When a bishop has lost respect of people divided a nation as much as Ton Apjron it becomes concern of every catholic. Catholics no longer acknowledge him as the bishop and so there is no authority here. A divided church with no leader. This is the problem. Not the abuse. Problem is Apuron divided our church when he should be symbol of unity.
Dear Anonymous at 2:43 pm,
DeleteStop listening to the jungle. Under this thread, I already provided evidence that the Archbishop did deny the sex allegation against him 8 months ago. And Tim Rohr continues to say that he never denied the sex allegation charge. The person who is inciting others to go against the Archbishop is the one causing the division through his misinterpretations and misconceptions.
I already provided evidence that the Archbishop did deny the sex allegation against him 8 months ago.
DeleteI READ that "THEY deny the sex allegation against him, NOT "HE" deny the sex allegation...
Dear Anonymous at 6:35 pm,
DeleteRead the sentence again. It specifically stated:
They are allegations the archbishop has vehemently denied and in statement with KUAM News last Friday he planned to file a defamation lawsuit.
Use your common sense. John Toves accuses only one man of molesting his cousin. So, according to that sentence, "they" was referring to the allegations made by Toves. And who was the one who denied the allegations? It was the Archbishop. My goodness! The deception you would resort to just to make it seem that he never denied those allegations.
four thousand Catholics?.....what is the basis for these numbers?
Deletea poll? what?
Use your common sense...
Delete"THEY" who speak for the Archbishop.
and who was the one who denied the allegations? It was "NOT" the Archbishop
it is they who speak for him, IS NOT THE SAME AS "HE" SPEAKING FOR HIMSELF...
the deception you would resort to just to make it seem that he never denied those allegations.
"HE" the Archbishop, "HIMSELF" he HAS TO SAY THE WORDS it's allegations against HIM...
Dear Anonymous at 10:15 pm,
DeleteYou are twisting the words around. The sentence NEVER said "they deny...." It says "they are allegations..." In a news report to KUAM, the Archbishop himself said that the allegations were false. All you had to do was look up the information yourself.
ReplyDeleteFour thousand came from the poll study conducted by LSE.
A poll conducted by LSE? Was it a public opinion poll?
DeleteWho is LSE?
LSE San Francisco conducted the poll on Guam 2014.
DeleteWhy LSE San Francisco? who initiated the poll request; who paid for it?
Delete
ReplyDeleteI have told you Diane. Archbishop must immediately gather the children together. He must tell them the time has come when for sacred honor and duty he must protect the integrity of the church. He must gather the children and tell them himself he is not guilty . Only he can clear his name. No statement from Claros or any other can clear name of Archbishop. Only he can deny not they.
Dear Anonymous at 2:35 am,
DeleteAnd I have already told you that all you need to do is pass along the news report. Who are you to tell the Archbishop what to do??? The Archbishop ALREADY denied the sex allegation 8 months ago. Furthermore, it is NOT the children who has a problem. It is people like you who have the problem because you did not listen the first time; therefore, you will not be able to listen the second time. It was the Archbishop himself who made the following statement in a press statement to KUAM. You can even find a YouTube video of the Archbishop himself making those same statements:
“I trust that the members of our Guam Catholic family who have observed my actions and leadership for the last thirty years will know in their hearts and spirit that these allegations are false.”
http://cathnews.co.nz/2014/12/12/archbishop-apuron-says-allegations-horrible-calumny/
And all you had to do was pass on the news report or the YouTube video when the Archbishop denied the allegation 8 months ago.
Diane, it is not my responsibility to go to YouTube and find all the clips on the archbishop. There must be many YouTube clips on archbishop to be studied. I do not have the time. I only watch nightly KUAM news. Now friends tell me Archbishop did interview KUAM news last December 2014. However, the archbishop statement was said to be rather " limpish" " wet fish" " handshake mentality. ". Listeners want a more firm personal statement from him said with meaning gusto and passion for truth. At present Archbishop is wishey washey in his approach creating listeners to not accept his version. He must call media again and make a statement with gusto.
Deletearchbishop must gather the children and tell them that for sacred honor of self, church, island, he must tell the truth on KUAM news. Only way to end John Toves situation. Simple call media into chancery, gather the children present truth. Archbishop will win. We all support him.
Person who writes on " gathering children" what do you exactly mean? are you referring to people as children? I believe your thinking on sacred respect integrity so vital to this disscussion on island. Are you the one who holds meetings in kings?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 9:01 am,
DeleteWhat makes anyone think that will put an end to the John Toves fiasco? As I said....if you did not listen the first time the Archbishop went public, you will not listen the second time. The only thing that will put an end to the John Toves fiasco is for the Archbishop to take John Toves to court for defamation. Sometimes Mother Church needs to discipline her unruly children in order for them to walk right and fly straight.
10 pm where did figure four thousand come from? Maybe you mean
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteArchbishop must immediately gather the children and tell them . Unless he gathers the children to deny thes e allegations in a public media conference situation worsens. Media conference takes ten minutes. Everyone should be invited to the conference . Conference should be followed by open question time so everyone can ask a question. This way when archbishop cleared allegations will go away for good.
Dear Anonymous at 11:52 am,
DeleteI was correct. So, your plan was not only for the Archbishop to go public and deny the sex allegation as he did 8 months ago, but also to invite everyone and have a question and answer forum. Your plan all along was to publicly humiliate the Archbishop. You cannot simply accept his denial. This is why I think the Archbishop should take John Toves to court. It will be the court who will decide who is speaking the truth.
DeleteNo intention to humiliate archbishop. No one wishes to humiliate another . There is also no plan. We simply feel a media conference will solve all the immediate distrust in the archdiocese. archbishop would give a talk denying the accounts of John Toves. Then journalists from media organizations could ask questions of the archbishop. This is normal process in media today. It only takes short period. Spokesman host introduces the problem. Then introduces archbishop. archbishops talks . Open question period on the talk. Followed by catered lunch wines. After everything be cleared up.
Taking this to court is a possibility but Catholics would rather Archbishop just apologize. I pray there will be a media conference very soon.
DeleteQuestion answer forum would allow KUAM reporters PDN writers to ask direct questions to archbishop. This is called freedom of the press in a democracy. This is what white house press office do. Hey if Obama can hold a press conference why not archbishop. I demand a press conference Immediatly.
Dear Anonymous 6:00 & 6:05 pm,
DeleteWhat questions do you need to ask the Archbishop that has not already been answered. He already denied the sexual allegations. He already said that the RM seminary belongs to the Archdiocese of Agana. He already said that Jesus is not a sinner. All you are doing is asking the same questions over and over and over and over, which is ridiculous.
It will come to an end when the Archbishop takes John Toves to court. The court will be the one to decide the outcome, and whatever decision the court makes should be final and the end of it. I understand that CCOG is also in the process of bringing the Archbishop to court over the RM seminary.
DeleteIf there is to be no press conference with open forum then I believe it is in the best interest of all parties that we bring these matters to a civil cout. Only then can we determine the truth. Indeed this is a sad period of history we are entering.
Dear Diana @ 8:47pm--
DeleteI agree: "It will come to an end when the Archbishop takes John Toves to court." This cannot come too soon for me!
ReplyDeleteSo many unruly catholics on island. Noticed unruly children of Guam have joined together giving them a platform to deliver their unruly message. These children need to be disciplined by a strong authority who will bring them back into main stream order of the church. Church needs to regain order and discipline. Excommunication of church members should be called for. Archbishop excommunicate those causing problems. Easy to list them. Identified 15 persons rebels.
Diane, you need to ask Archbishop to tweet messages to followers. Once he calls media conference to deny allegations then he tweets and then we all tweet his message. This will bring a stop to the worsening crisis in our islands church. All can be resolved fast by tweeting.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 1:32 pm,
DeleteYou can start by tweeting the news report.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of one commenter. Archbishop must hold a media news conference inviting islands media to a public open forum question style interview. The conference would follow a lunch. Only way to bring an end to the allegations rocking our church. Not sure that taking the allegations into court will do any good for our church. It will only divide further. Media conference is the answer. Thank you.
Dear Anonymous at 11:28 am,
DeleteI disagree. Whoever loses in court should accept the decision of the court, and that will put an end to the division.
I don't always agree with Diana, but on this I do. The court will be an unbiased arbitrator--not everyone will agree with the decision, but they'll gave to accept it because there will be nowhere else to go. If we had the news conference it'll be more of the same.
Delete
DeleteIn response to Anonymous August 29, 2015 at 5:31 PM
You want the Church to participate in a jungle free for all circus court?
Unbiased arbitrator? All humans are biased.
You must be part of the circus!!
Anonymous at 10:47AM--
DeleteHow sad that you are so cynical. The Archbishop is the one who said he will take it to court...so you are saying he is also a part of your so-called circus?
Maybe you have another way of settling it. Or maybe you prefer things be divided.....
It really is terrible Diane what a circus all this is now becoming in the jungle . There seems to be a few individuals who are turning our church into a soap opera for a better word. These people need to go to confession and stop causing problems in our community. Certain individuals are now creating more problems instead of working for unity.
Delete12:43 AM You mean Tim Rohr the Ringmaster. he's sure causing a lot of problems. if he wasn't here in Guam I wonder if you still have all these problems in the church
Delete
ReplyDeletePast few days our much loved Father Pius has been unkindly treated on blogs. We pray for Fr. Pius and assure him of our love, prayers, support. We pray for those who insult Fr. Pius by their unkindly words.
There is a perception that Fr. Pius exerts a considerable influence and power oover the Catholic life on Guam. People would like to know where this power is coming from. It could have some benefits to discuss how the NCW would respond to this perception.
Delete