AnonymousJune 11, 2015 at 9:12 PM
Diana, does the NCW teach that Judas Iscariot is saved? Does the NCW believe that a Judas Iscariot is necessary.
Although Jesus certainly foreknew Judas would betray him[2], Judas had free will. He was not created or predestined by God to sin, but rather, chose that path himself. The Council of Trent, which Kiko has been known to berate, taught:
“If anyone shall say that the grace of justification is attained by those only who are predestined unto life, but that all others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil: let him be anathema.”[3]
The Doctrine of the Necessary Judas has a sectarian purpose. It allows Kiko’s followers to tag the label of “Judas” upon anyone who criticizes “the Way”, and to do so quickly with out thinking, and without discernment.
http://thoughtfulcatholic.com/?page_id=44155
Although Jesus certainly foreknew Judas would betray him[2], Judas had free will. He was not created or predestined by God to sin, but rather, chose that path himself. The Council of Trent, which Kiko has been known to berate, taught:
“If anyone shall say that the grace of justification is attained by those only who are predestined unto life, but that all others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil: let him be anathema.”[3]
The Doctrine of the Necessary Judas has a sectarian purpose. It allows Kiko’s followers to tag the label of “Judas” upon anyone who criticizes “the Way”, and to do so quickly with out thinking, and without discernment.
http://thoughtfulcatholic.com/?page_id=44155
First of all, where does it say that Kiko said that Judas Iscariot is saved????? Where is the quote from Kiko Arguello?? Apparently, Mr. Chuck White was putting words in Kiko's mouth because I do not see any quote from Kiko saying that Judas Iscariot is saved. According to Mr. White:
"Second, despite the preponderance of Scriptural evidence to the contrary (e.g. Matthew 26:24, and John 17:12), and despite the fact that the Church has never made a definitive pronouncement on the matter, Kiko teaches that Judas Iscariot has been saved!"
The NCW does not teach that Judas Iscariot is saved nor do we teach that he is condemned to Hell. We follow the Pope and the teaching Magisterium of the Church. Why? Because only the Pope and the teaching Magisterium of the Catholic Church can correctly interpret Sacred Scripture. According to Pope Francis:
But let us not pass a hasty judgment here. Jesus never abandoned Judas, and no one knows, after he hung himself from a tree with a rope around his neck, where he ended up: in Satan’s hands or in God’s hands. Who can say what transpired in his soul during those final moments? “Friend” was the last word that Jesus addressed to him, and he could not have forgotten it, just as he could not have forgotten Jesus’ gaze.
It is true that in speaking to the Father about his disciples Jesus had said about Judas, “None of them is lost but the son of perdition” (Jn 17:12). But here, as in so many other instances, he is speaking from the perspective of time and not of eternity. The enormity of this betrayal is enough by itself alone, without needing to consider a failure that is eternal, to explain the other terrifying statement said about Judas: “It would have been better for that man if he had not been born” (Mk 14:21). The eternal destiny of a human being is an inviolable secret kept by God. The Church assures us that a man or a woman who is proclaimed a saint is experiencing eternal blessedness, but she does not herself know for certain that any particular person is in hell.
To put it in simple terms, the Catholic Church does not teach that Judas Iscariot is saved nor does she teach that he is condemned to Hell. The Church remains silent as to the whereabouts of the soul of Judas Iscariot.
Furthermore, Mr. White goes on to say:
Judas Iscariot certainly had an active role in the Passion of Christ, but was he necessary? Without him, would Christ have died for our sins? Did God will that he betray Jesus?
Lino Lista, a prolific critic of the Neocatechumenal Way, responds:
“The decision to kill Jesus had already been taken (John 7:1) and He had already escaped from the hands of his adversaries, escaping from the precipice and stoning (Luke 4: 29-30; John 8:59; John 10: 31-39 ). Had he wanted to, Christ could have escaped capture capture even in the Garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:53: ” Do you think I can not call on my Father, that would give me more than twelve legions of angels ? “). It was only up to Christ, therefore, to decide the time (John 7:30), the place and manner of his Passion. Only Christ is essential: Judas is not necessary and not even enough.”
It is unfortunate that Mr. White chose to listen to Lino Lista rather than to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Judas Iscariot was necessary because he was PART of God's plan of salvation. It is true that God did not predestine Judas to become a sinner. It was Judas' choice to sin, which God already knew. Predestination has a different meaning to Catholics compared to Protestants. According to the Catholic teaching on predestination: Predestination is a term used to identify God’s plan of salvation, in which according to His own decree, He “accomplishes all things according to his will” (Eph. 1:11). God gives us the gift of salvation through grace and faith. In turn, we must use our free will to persevere in good works “prepared beforehand” by God Himself (Eph. 2:8-10; cf. Phil. 2:12, 13).
http://www.cuf.org/2005/02/chosen-in-him-the-catholic-teaching-on-predestination/
The Catechism of the Catholic Church also states (the bold is mine): To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness. (CCC 600).
In other words, Judas Iscariot was PART of God's plan of salvation. God used Judas Iscariot's choice and free will to sin to bring about His plan of salvation to mankind in accordance with Scripture. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (bold is mine):
CCC 599 Jesus' violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God's plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: "This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God."393 This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.394
CCC 600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396
"He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures"
CCC 601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.397 Citing a confession of faith that he himself had "received", St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures."398 In particular Jesus' redemptive death fulfills Isaiah's prophecy of the suffering Servant.399 Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God's suffering Servant.400 After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.401
To put it simply, the Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled according to God's divine plan of salvation. The prophets of the Old Testament prophesized about a betrayer because God already knew the future and Judas' choice to sin, and the prophecy came to pass in order to fulfill God's plan of salvation in accordance with Scripture. Mr. White interpreted Kiko's painting according to his prejudice view. Kiko painted Christ in white robes and with wounds to show that He was indeed the unblemished Lamb of God who offered His body as a sacrifice at the Last Supper.
"Judas Iscariot was necessary"
ReplyDeleteHuh? If he truly had free will, that is impossible.
Dear Anonymous at 12:01 am,
DeleteApparently, you do not understand what predestination is according to the Catholic's definition. You are not disagreeing with me. You are disagreeing with the Catholic Church as stated in her Catechism:
CCC 599 Jesus' violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God's plan,............
CCC 600 ................ When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
Dear Diana, I don't think you understand what you are quoting.
DeleteOn the way to work yesterday, I had a flat tire. Eventually, I changed the tyre and made my way to work.
If I had knowledge of the flat tire in advance I certainly could adjust my plans accordingly to take it into account - and it then could be considered "part of my plans".
However, to claim that the flat tire was "necessary" for me to get to work would be completely false.
This is what Kiko does with Judas. But if Judas did actually have free will, God could have equally accomplished his plans without Judas' involvement.
Besides this, the real reason Kiko makes these statements about Judas is so that the member will persevere with the community against all opposition, even if it is legitimate criticism. In this way, those that don't accept everything Kiko teaches and does, can be put in the "Judas" camp and conveniently ignored - or blamed instead.
Dear Anonymou at 10:38 am,
DeleteI think it is very clear what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states. There was a divine plan of salvation, and even Judas' free will to sin is not going to thwart God's plan of salvation. Rather, it became part of it. As the Catechism stated:
CCC 599 Jesus' violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God's plan,............
The Catechism stated that Jesus' death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is PART of the mystery of God's plan. Mary was also PART of the mystery of God's plan of salvation. Thanks to Mary's cooperation, Christ was incarnated as a man into the world. Mary was PART of God's plan of salvation to mankind. The Catechism further stated: "When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."......"
"I think it is very clear what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states. There was a divine plan of salvation, and even Judas' free will to sin is not going to thwart God's plan of salvation. Rather, it became part of it."
DeleteRight. God's plan would be accomplished whatever Judas chose to do. The fact that God knew of Judas' choices is neither surprising, nor does it mean that Judas was "necessary". This is where the whole thing goes wrong for you and the NCW.
Its not helpful to go as far as saying Judas was necessary - excepting that to make Judas "necessary" serves the interest of the community.
Dear Anonymous at 12:53 pm,
DeleteThe Catechism clearly says that all who participated in the death of Christ were PART of God's plan of salvation. Mary was also PART of His plan of salvation. This is where the whole thing goes wrong for you, and this kind of thinking is even dangerous.
If we were to listen to this kind of teaching from you, then it also becomes unnecessary for the Apostles to preach the Gospels to all the nations, which is also part of God's plan of salvation to mankind. Did not the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Holy Bible say that it is NECESSARY that Christ should suffer these things? According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (capitalization is mine):
CCC 572 The Church remains faithful to the interpretation of "all the Scriptures" that Jesus gave both before and after his Passover: "Was it not NECESSARY that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"314 Jesus' sufferings took their historical, concrete form from the fact that he was "rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes", who handed "him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified".315
According to the Holy Bible:
Luke 24:25-27 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 24:44-46 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
So, how do you expect the Old Testament prophecies told by God to come to pass without Mary's participation, without Judas' choice to sin, without the Pharisees' hardened hearts? The Catechism states that all these were PART of God's divine plan of salvation. What is it about the word "PART" that you do not comprehend?
I was so intrigued by this post that I went over to White's blog to see what he wrote. He seems to be making two points: 1) Kiko says that without Judas, the Paschal Mystery wouldn't have happened, and 2) Kiko deliberately inserted the figure of Judas in the upper room with Jesus after the Resurrection.
ReplyDeleteIs Chuck White quoting Kiko correctly? If not, what exactly did Kiko say about Judas. Also why did Kiko put Judas in that icon? He must have had a good reason.
Dear Anonymous at 7:26 am,
DeleteIf Chuck White had bothered to ask the NCW if they believe that Judas Iscariot was saved, he would have learned from them our answer. Our answer is the same as the Pope. We do not know where Judas Iscariot is. We do not teach that he is saved nor do we teach that he was condemned to Hell. Mr. White, on the other hand, believed that Judas Iscariot was condemned to Hell because he interpreted the biblical passages on his own like the Protestants did rather than following the interpretations of the Catholic Church.
Diana, who is the figure in the icon "dipping his morsel"? Is this Judas or not? It appears Mr White is correct that in Eastern Iconography, this figure is always identified as Judas. So what is meant by this painting of Kiko's?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 10:39 am,
DeleteI already answered that question in my entry post. The painting is NOT a post-resurrection painting. It is a painting of the Last Supper, so Judas Iscariot is in the painting dipping his hand in the bowl. Christ is dressed in white robes with wounds in his hands and feet to show that He is indeed the unblemished Lamb of God who offered His body as a sacrifice. Do you not remember the words of Christ at the Last Supper????
Luke 22:10-20 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
Regarding the Last Supper, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
CCC 1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
Therefore, Kiko's painting was not showing a post-resurrection Christ, but a Christ as the Lamb of God who gave up His body and blood for the forgiveness of sins at the Last Supper.
Ok, I have a couple of questions then.
Delete1. Why are there only eleven apostles?
2. Can you show any other example of iconography where Jesus is depicted at the Last Supper with his wounds? Does this mean all the other iconographers were simplistic, or does it mean Kiko has knowledge that they didn't?
By the way, the irony of you quoting 1366 is not lost on us.
Dear Anonymous at 12:59 pm,
DeleteYou need to ask Kiko Arguello those questions. He is the one who painted it. Who knows. Maybe one of the disciples decided to get the wine in the kitchen after Judas dipped his hand in the dish.
Oh, but you're so sure about Kiko intentions in your previous posts, Diana? What the matter. Couldn't find a suitable excuse?
DeleteAnd its "apostles", not "disciples", by the way.
You didn't answer the second point at all. You always do this. You focus on the first line, and that's it. Surely, for the sake of dialogue you can go beyond the first line?
Dear Anonymous at 1:57 pm,
DeleteIf Kiko actually taught that Judas Iscariot is saved, don't you think we in the NCW would be hearing it from the catechists as well???? I have never heard Father Pius or any Catechists say that Judas Iscariot is saved. As a matter of fact, I have heard Father Pius say that we do not know where those who committed suicide go in the next life because we do not know what his/her last thoughts are.
Dear Diana at 2.05
DeleteSo, you still don't have a reasonable answer to why there are only eleven apostles, even though you assert this is a Last Supper icon; and you still didn't answer the second point.
Kiko copies his icons from others, as has been amply demonstrated. So where is the precedent for a risen Christ at the Last Supper? And why only eleven apostles? Who is missing and why?
"If Kiko actually taught that Judas Iscariot is saved, don't you think we in the NCW would be hearing it from the catechists as well???? "
(watch those "?????" - often that is an indication of an unstable mind)
And no, not at all necessarily. The NCW is a gnostic way - where information is gradually revealed and only later does the fuller teaching become apparent. In fact, it may not ever be revealed fully. Anyway, the quotes from the Catechesis are pretty convincing actually.
Dear Anonymous at 3:12 pm,
DeleteI guess you must be a newcomer. The ??? means "huh." If there are more than 3 ?s, that is my way of saying "Duh." Also, I did answer your question. I said one of the Apostles probably went to the kitchen to get the wine after Judas dipped his mortal into the dish. Yes, Kiko copies from other icons. I also told you that Kiko's painting is of the last supper. He painted Christ not as the risen Loed but as the unblemished Lamb of God. This is already the third time I said this. I would greatly appreciate that you read all comments under the thread so as to avoid asking the same question.
Dipped his mortal into the dish? Sounds uncomfortable....
DeleteThis is the bit you haven't answered:
"2. Can you show any other example of iconography where Jesus is depicted at the Last Supper with his wounds? Does this mean all the other iconographers were simplistic, or does it mean Kiko has knowledge that they didn't?"
Dear Anonymous at 11:46 pm,
DeleteI meant dipped his morsel into the dish. Not all iconographers are simplistic. There are some who draw a catechesis into it such as the icon with Jesus in the Netherworld and the icon with the burning bush with a figure of Mary at the top of the burning bush.
Kiko is one of these iconographers who draw icons with a catechesis in it. The icon he drew of the last supper and the Holy Family has a catechesis in it. His Holy Family icon is a reflection of the Holy Trinity. His last supper icon is a catechesis of the profound mystery of the Eucharist. In his last supper icon, Christ is drawn with white robes on symbolizing that He was the unblemished Lamb of God to be sacrificed and His Body and Blood offered to us. Judas is there because he was numbered as one of the Apostles who betrayed Christ. Judas' sin had an impact on the Apostles. Because of his sin, there were only eleven Apostles. As a result of his sin, a twelve Apostle had to be chosen.
That is the catechesis in Kiko's icon. Kiko was never teaching that Judas Iscariot was saved otherwise it would have been taught in the NCW. The icon that Kiko drew is not a heavenly banquet. It was the earthly Last Supper (or Passover) that Christ had with his Apostles. How do we know? Because John is there leaning on Christ's chest and Judas is there dipping his morsel into the bowl. Those actions by those two Apostles can only be found in the Last Supper.
The painters of the icons paint for different reasons. Some like the Eastern icon of Moses and the burning bush has a catechesis in it. The burning bush represents Mary, which is why the figure of Mary is on top of the burning bush. Other painters simply draw a historical event without any catechesis. The observers, on the other hand, can interpret any painting according to their own views and bias. Dan Brown, author of the Da Vinci Code, for example interpreted Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper painting in an unorthodox way. He claimed that Mary Magdalene (not John) was leaning on Jesus' chest. Dan Brown is anti-Catholic. In the same way, Chuck White is anti-Neo so it is his prejudice that interprets Kiko's painting.
if events are predestined , then the choices are predestined to, which means they are not free.
ReplyDeleteDear niinja2,
DeletePredestination, in Catholicism, does not mean that God determined the choices. Please read my comments under this thread.
Dear Diana Thankyou for explaining pre destination. I am confused is pr destination same as destiny. What does it mean to say someone is a child of destiny?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 5:06 pm,
DeleteWe all have one and the same destiny, which is eternal life in Heaven. But we always have free will. We can choose Heaven or Hell. There is no such thing as "child of destiny" in the Holy Bible. Predestination is not the same as destiny. Catholics also view predestination differently than Protestant Christians.
I didn't say God predestined them, i said they were predestined. I wrote one sentence and you misquote it.
ReplyDeleteGod looked at the future and saw what kind of choices people will make without Him influencing them. Then he created his own events around our choices so he can save us. What is His guarantee that we will behave exactly as he foretold ? If we act the same way he foretold it in His plan it means that our choices are not free but are still predetermined by something and are happening exactly as he foretold it because they are predetermined. It does not have to be that God predetermined them, they can still be predetermined by external events.
If our choices are not predetermined then God could have made a plan and we could have picked anything and behaved not according to His plan and invalidated his plan in the process.
For example what if Judas decided with his free will not to betray Jesus, it was a critical event that would brake the entire plan. If everybody acted as God foretold that means their actions were predetermined by something , not necessarily God...
Dear niinja2,
DeleteIn predestination.......it means that God already knows what we will do before we even decide what we chose to do. Regardless of how and why we made those choices, God already knew the choice we would make. God did not influence our choices in any way. We are free to make them, and God already knows what we will do before we do it. He knows us better than we know ourselves. It has always been our free will to make the choices we make. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him just as He knew that Peter would deny Him three times. How does He Know? He knows because God is an All-knowing God.
"God did not influence our choices in any way."
DeleteFor the second time and i think there is going to be a third and a fourth time, i did not say God influenced us. But this does not mean we are not influenced. We can be influenced by our nature, by psychology, by activities that happen within our bran, by our heart, by other people and so on...
This is my question:
(1) How does God knows what we will do?
Dear niinja2,
DeleteYou ask: 'How does God knows what we will do?
Answer: God knows everything. That is why He is God.
Yeah but how?
DeleteJust saying that he does know does not explain how does He know something.
(1)You might say that He knows everything because He knows position of every particle in the universe, He knows every detail of our soul and heart, correct?
(2) If God knew 5 minutes ago that we are going to decide to eat a banana within the next 5 minutes then this is exactly what is going to happen, we are going to eat a banana. Yes or no?
Diana, you must be wrong about that icon. Here is a link to a web site hosted by Neocatechumenal parish in Italy that uses the icon Chuck White was discussing: http://www.sanmarcocsp.it/dio-ti-ama-cosigrave-come-sei-incontri-di-catechesi-2014.html. The parish is inviting people to the Neocatechumenal catechesis.
ReplyDelete"Jesus Christ Lives and Loves You". The ad says, referring directly to Christ's Resurrection. The Last Supper is definitely NOT the subject of that icon.
Dear Anonymous at 10:03 pm,
DeleteFor the fourth time......I am going to say this again. The painting is of the Last supper. It represents Christ as the unblemished Lamb of God who sacrificed His body and blood for mankind. The Eucharist is called the Last Supper. It is also called the Passover feast because Christ "passed over" death. And yes,the Last Supper is also about Christ's death and resurrection. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 1329 The Lord's Supper, because of its connection with the supper which the Lord took with his disciples on the eve of his Passion and because it anticipates the wedding feast of the Lamb in the heavenly Jerusalem.
The Breaking of Bread, because Jesus used this rite, part of a Jewish meal when as master of the table he blessed and distributed the bread, above all at the Last Supper. It is by this action that his disciples will recognize him after his Resurrection, and it is this expression that the first Christians will use to designate their Eucharistic assemblies; by doing so they signified that all who eat the one broken bread, Christ, enter into communion with him and form but one body in him.
The Eucharistic assembly (synaxis), because the Eucharist is celebrated amid the assembly of the faithful, the visible expression of the Church.
CCC 1340 By celebrating the Last Supper with his apostles in the course of the Passover meal, Jesus gave the Jewish Passover its definitive meaning. Jesus' passing over to his father by his death and Resurrection, the new Passover, is anticipated in the Supper and celebrated in the Eucharist, which fulfills the Jewish Passover and anticipates the final Passover of the Church in the glory of the kingdom.
The icon of Kiko is NOT the heavenly banquet found in God's kingdom. It is an icon of the Last Supper on earth. How do we know this? It is because John has his head on Jesus' chest and Judas is dipping his morsel into the dish. Apparently, Kiko knew what the Eucharist on earth meant in accordance with what was written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
There are eleven apostles
DeleteDear anon at 10.03. Did you notice that nowhere in the "invitation" does it mention the Neocatechumenal Way?
DeleteThis is the first time that Diana discusses on iconography. It is very clear.
ReplyDeleteDiana, if the icon is of the Last Supper as you say, then why is the setting outdoors? Look at the upper-right side. Do you see the rugged bluffs? That's the way the wilderness and mountains are portrayed in countless Eastern icons. Did the Last Supper occur outside?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 8:15 am,
DeleteThey look more like bent wooden posts to me. Nevertheless, some artists have painted the Last Supper outside rather than inside a room. For example, the weblink below shows a Russian orthodox painting of the last supper outside the city rather than in a room.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Last-supper-of-Jesus-Christ-Russian-Orthodox-Icon-Silver-Gold-stamping-/161704738403
No, Diana, the background in the ebay icon you just mentioned is definitely composed of buildings, and Eastern icons commonly use them to signify Jerusalem. The background of the Kiko's icon that White discusses is the mountains/wilderness and not "wooden posts". Look closely. They are very common in icons portraying Jesus's baptism in the Jordan. Click here to see.
DeleteYou need to study more authentic icons of the Russian and Greek tradition.
Dear Anonymous at 10:34 am,
DeleteMy response is found in the following weblink:
http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2015/06/last-supper-icon.html
Diana, you really need to study more Iconography. What does it mean "one of the Apostles probably went to the kitchen to get the wine..."? Are you joking? If so, an iconographer can paint the Annunciation omitting the Angel and paint the Adoration of the Magi with only two Magi, explaining that the Angel and the third Magio are late. Please, you also study the Guidelines for Teams of Catechists for the Initial Phase, especially Carmen's catechesis on the Eucharist. You'll understand why the Apostles are eleven.
DeleteDear Lino,
DeleteI was only kidding about the apostle getting the wine in the kitchen. Lighten up. Chuck White accused Kiko of teaching that Judas Iscariot is saved, but nowhere is that being taught in the NCW. We have never proclaimed that Judas Iscariot is saved. We do not know where his soul is.
there are no desperate situations, just desperate men.
Deletechuck and tim accusations have been debunked; proven untrue. Sad
Hi Diana,
ReplyDeleteI think it would help if there were a book available explaining Kiko Arguello's icons, paintings, and whatever else he creates as an artist that are used in the NCW. Perhaps this could be suggested to him by those in charge of the NCW on Guam. With such a book available, many questions could be answered regarding his artwork.
Is there a book available on the NCW approved by Kiko Arguello? That too would clear up a lot of questions. A book by NCW members would also be helpful. What do you think?
Eleanor Aguon