There has been several comments coming through my blog regarding the liturgy of the Neocatechumenal Way. I have not published all of them simply because these questions have already been answered, and we are only going around in circles and repeating the same things over and over. I have already given you the answers. Whether you believe it or not was never my problem. In fact, even the Archbishop has given the same answer. We have permission from Rome to celebrate the Eucharist the way we do.
If you have a problem with the Eucharist of the Way, the only solution I can recommend for you is to write your letters of complaint to Rome. Continue to write your letters. If you have Archbishop's Krebs email or phone number, by all means go ahead and contact him. But please do not tell us that we should follow this or follow that. We know that you have never even seen the Pope. The Archbishop, on the other hand, has seen and spoken to the Pope; therefore, we follow him. I will no longer entertain any comments regarding the liturgy of the Way simply because we are only going around in circles. I have already given you the answer to your question, and if you are not satisfied, then simply write to Rome or to the Nuncio. Good luck and God bless. :-)
True!
ReplyDeleteWe have been running circles with these people since the beginning.
If you're mad and don't like us, then write a complaint. While you all do that... We'll continue with the Pope's words... "MOVE FORWARD"
Wise decision, dear Diana.
ReplyDeleteWhy they write.....question the same issue's is a grace for all Diana. This is necessary because to realize.....to accept the truth in the answers you have provided will be totally against their perceptions of Faith......or religion. This cannot be.....this is not the way I was taught....this is not what I am comfortable with....my relationship with God is fine.
ReplyDeleteWriting to Rome? They continue to ignore what the Pope has proclaimed. Like Thomas, only Jesus presence in front of them will suffice. We in the WAY may see...feel...live his wounds everyday but not everyone does.
Courage Diana....as with the Prophet Habakkuk....we also question why these things are happening in our times. I believe Habakkuk is known as the Prophet of Faith.....something we need now.
JSB
JSB
How come, when Msgr. BeNevente appeared in PDN, u devoted dedicated article here about it? Yet, when same thing happened for Fr. Camacho, u don't dedicate article here about it?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 10:01 am,
DeleteI do not have any entry post on Monsignor James.......only the Internal Review that was published. As for Father Luis, the entry post I have of him was his ordination.
The internal Review that you wrote on bashed Msgr. James! I guess when you are bitten back on the butt, you try to paint a different picture. The truth will set this island free.
DeleteBTW DIANA, what would you think if the actual police report was made public and the Archbishop implicated himself in a coverup?
Dear Anonymous at 1:57 pm,
DeleteThe Internal Review printed only numbers and facts. Bashing is when you degrade someone by name calling.
I didn't use the word degrade. I used the word bashed.
DeleteAnonymousMarch 21, 2015 at 5:47 PM
ReplyDeleteI didn't use the word degrade. I used the word bashed.....??
Webster's available online
I got this situation in the Way I want to share. Reading Keith I understand a lot of what he says. He says community is nice, but not in the form of the Way. But we are in the Way and we are all Catholics. So what's up with us now, Keith? The Way is a life style, Keith. II am saying this apart from Fr Louis who got himself in trouble now. God searches man's heart and He will know everything. We need to pray for His mercy in all situations. You are right, there are a few repulsive things in the Way. Liturgy is just one thing I do not care much for. The Way has it so it’s good enough for me. What is wrong with this, Keith? Are you a purist? Let me tell you our Jesus has never been a purist. So I must not be one either.
ReplyDeleteOf course, you just hit the nail on the head, Keith and I agree with you. If you feel like the game is dirty it is better to leave. But what is the price to pay? Are you willing to throw away the whole darned idea of a community of Christ? Is this not too high of a price to pay, Keith? What about your life style? I mean we are all sinners, true. But we have a life style that leads out of the quagmire. Just look at the life style of young folks around. What do you see? Is it not a shameful mess? Not a quagmire? Not a swampy road to hell?
Keith, I simply cannot afford to be a purist. Our Jesus is so much more for me that that! I cannot place Him behind the glass wall and look at Him from a distance. I need Him right here and right now in my life, up to the last pores of my skin. I need to breath Him in and out. How about that, Keith? Are you still really concerned only about sitting or standing during Eucharist? You know I see this from another angle. It is a game of life or death. It goes existential under your skin. I wanted to tell you this, because you look concerned from a great distance. If you do not bring down the holy from the glass shop window into my reality, into the dirt of my everyday life, then you may have aesthetics nice but not salvation for the needy. Our Jesus did not come to polish the pebbles on the beach, He came to walk in the sand and become dirty at the leg as walking to face real people. Like me, like the adulterous woman, like Fr Louis, like all the sinners. He only washed His legs afterward, when salvation had been completed for the day with a vengeance!
This is the life style I am talking about. Please, look at our Jesus as suffering for me, suffering for us all, suffering for our sins. Look at His hand pierced by nails grappling in pain on the cross. His face is covered by blood and distorted by suffering. His clothes are torn apart and dirty. What a mess, Keith, what a mess of the history of the mankind?! … And look, He is still my Savior through all this mess, through all this dirt, through all this vicious reality. This makes me walking toward Him unceasingly. How could I ever stop, Keith? How could I choose any other life style? How could I throw away the gem I found just because it needs some cleaning? So please, tell me Keith in true heart, what are you talking about?
I enjoyed reading this comment. There are things I agree with you about however some I feel need some additions. First of all i admire you saying that maybe yes it is true that the ncw has some let's say refining to do to its methods how they treat the members, to its liturgy etc. so now knowing that, I do not ask you to leave the ncw. However not doing anything about it is not correct either. If you don't particularly care about liturgical laws like me after all, fine but you are not in the ncw as a separate church but as a part of a bigger one, so even simply out of respect I would think that i should stick to anything which has written approval. Again yes maybe it is silly to make a difference between standing up or sitting but it certainly shows respect and it certainly shows unity if the communion is done as every other church. If it gives so many people trouble is it not better to just go for complete unity and do the same as everywhere else? I mean it's not a question of better or worse because the church's method is surely good so you cannot be doing something wrong in changing this simle thing. The post about laws diana posted applies vice versa to the ncw as well. If a law is given too much importance that it does not lead to Christ, therefore to love, it is quite honestly useless.
DeleteSo that is what i ask for, to encourage change. When you see something which needs cleaning as you put it, it is irresponsible and actually wrong to stand there and do nothing especially if it makes quite a few people bothered worldwide.
I still talk here and write comments on what i think should be changed and done because i want the ncw to be better to be a place where the members are truly free to be in the ncw and not remain in there because their family is in it and they're afraid to leave because they're afraid they will lose all their life, and other similar circumstances which do exist whther you know about them or not. So all I can say is encourage change, even the church changed so not changing is not a good sign. People make mistakes so the things they do always need changing, some refinement. This is what I am talking about. Once you refine this you can do much more with the ncw and the thing you call persecution would not exist by other catholics.
Dear Keith,
DeleteIt is not your place to tell the NCW what to do. You are not the Pope. Let the Pope do his job. The NCW is already doing much more than you realize. And Christ DID say that His Church will be persecuted just as He was persecuted. So, we are happy to receive this persecution as it makes more in unity and one with Christ.
I am not talking to the ncw. I am talking to a person. I can tell a person what to do as much as I want, as long as i dont oppress or threaten that person, because that person has the free will given by God to decide if what I say is true or not, if it is good or not, if it applies for him or not, and then decide to do it or not to do it by himself. I do not pretend to be the Pope, but I am a person, a catholic who takes his faith seriously unlike many people in today's world unfortunately, who tries to unify the Church with my words AND actions.
DeleteAnd yes Christ said whoever truly believes in me will be persecuted, but 1. for the millionth time not agreeing with a group, a way of life, a part of the church, and pointing out where this part can do better is NOT persecution. 2. If you keep saying it is persecution, than put yourself in my position, if I reasoned things like you do, how much should I feel persecuted that thousands of people in the ncw are 'against' me, are persecuting me. Of course in your mind you will find it stupid and you would be correct in thinking, what is he saying? from where is he getting this stupid idea of the ncw persecuting him?.. but think, it is just the same story but vice versa.. however thankfully I know that it is not persecution but simply and unfortunately lack of humility from the ncw's side.
3. Does it really make sense this persecution story? I mean if you reflect a bit, so what would happen if people no longer said anything to disagree with the ncw? then it would be bad because that is not what Christ said?? Is that why you keep using the word persecution and the catechists keep saying that every joke, every disagreement against the ncw is a persecution? because if they had no persecution it would not be as Jesus said it would be? (I hope not because that is wrong reasoning)
Another thing, the pope's job is not to stay answering emails or mail so it is useless saying to people just send a letter to the pope or the nuncio at the vatican and they will answer you. It makes no sense. It is impossible for the pope or anyone at the Vatican to answer all the letters. And if you keep insisting that is the way to do things, than I tell you, The Vatican apparently leaves room for discussion because no letter has ever surfaced that anyone there said they agree or disagree with some letter whether it was pro ncw or against it. So if they worked like you say they did not decide what to do or say yet.
Dear Keith,
DeleteWhen you stated, "I still talk here and write comments on what i think should be changed and done because i want the ncw to be better to be a place.........."
Your intention is clear that you want to change the NCW. Again that job belongs to the Pope.
If you have been reading the jungle, their intention is also clear. They want the NCW gone and destroyed from this island. They want the seminarians who see as "foreigners" rather than as "Catholics" gone from this island. So, that is persecution......white persecution. There are many types of persecution. When a group of people say that they don't want you on this island and even write a petition prohibiting this group of Catholics not to come into their village parish.....that is persecution.
Keith, an investigation was started by Pope Benedict on the Way as a result of those letters and complaints coming into the Vatican. After the sex abuse scandal, I think the Vatican is getting more serious about looking into complaints. We even had three Archbishops do a pastoral visit to Guam so they can report to Rome their findings. So, far nothing has come out of that. Tim Rohr was able to meet with the three Vatican visitors, and I'm sure that Tim put in all his complaints about everything, and so far nothing has come to that. As for the investigation that was started by Pope Benedict XVI, nothing ever came out of it. When Francis became Pope, instead of continuing the investigations into the Way, he ceased all investigations into the Way.
All these things should tell you something. The investigation into the Way by the Vatican was dismissed. It is now almost three months since the Vatican delegation came to Guam and heard all the complaints of the people here, and so far, we have the Pope giving us his greatest support. Pope Francis even confirmed Kiko's position as Consultor of the Pontifical Council of the Laity for another five years. All these signs are there. Those who oppose the Way continue to say we are disobedient and that we are not Catholic. But we are Catholic, and the fact that we have the support of the Pope makes us so.
"But we are Catholic, and the fact that we have the support of the Pope makes us so. "
DeleteThat is not what makes one a Catholic. It is what you believe (in whom you believe actually) and what you do that makes you Catholic. Every time you prefer an un-authorised version of communion to that which is explicitly given by the Church, you step outside the Catholic Church. Simple really.
Dear Anonymous at 12:32 pm,
DeleteWhat makes us Catholic is the fact that we are officially recognized by the Pope and Magisterium as belonging to the one, holy, apostolic, Church. We have official recognition and standing with the Vatican despite what you say. The authority of the Pope (who is the Vicar of Christ) and the Magisterium is the official authority, not you.
Actually you are wrong again. The NCW has a certain standing by virtue of the exercise of the Holy See's legitimate authority , this is true. But if you go beyond that certain standing you have divorced yourself from the same authority. Hence, it is true to say that "Every time you prefer an un-authorised version of communion to that which is explicitly given by the Church, you step outside the Catholic Church"
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:57 pm,
DeleteAnd we have already told you that we have permission from the Holy See to celebrate the Eucharist the way we do. The Way has been in existence for over 50 years. Don't you think that if the Pope is going to correct Kiko, they would have done it by now rather than awarding him a position in the Pontifical Council of the Laity??? The theory that the Pope is being fatherly and lenient so they do not lose over 1 million people is ridiculous. 40 years ago, the Way did not have more than 1 million members, and that would have been the appropriate time to either excommunicate Kiko into obedience. It is now over 50 years.
"Don't you think that if the Pope is going to correct Kiko, they would have done it by now"
DeleteThe "Pope" has been correcting this for the past twenty years, beginning with Pope John Paul II, through to the letter of Cardinal Arinze on behalf of Pope John Paul II and the addresses and clear entreaties of Pope Benedict (he almost begged the NCW to listen!). In every case the NCW turned away from these instructions.
You can see the change that was made to the 2002 statutes to remove the reference to sitting - so that it is omitted from the definitive statutes. Why would the Holy See have done this if sitting is ok? It makes no sense. You are stubborn and hard of heart. You prefer disunity and division, and negate the Church each time you choose this way.
Your obsession with excommunication is weird. What do you do if your own child is disobedient to you? Do you reject them and send them to live on the streets?
Ok fine Diana, keep on living in your bubble. I thought dialogue was made to try and reach a mutual understanding but all I see is one sided egoism sorry. I never said i wanted ncw gone, destroyed or excommunicated. You put all the people under the same judgement. So don't change until the Pope tells you to change something and then at that moment remember that so many people including myself had already said that changes needed to happen. Bye.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 3:50 pm,
DeleteThose are not corrections. Those speeches by the Popes for the last 20 years have been praising the Way. If it was a correction, there would not be a single praise in their speech but only condemnation. The 3 recommendations of Pope Francis are not even corrections or reprimands, but suggestions to follow.
The letter of Cardinal Arinze was not a correction? What planet are you living on? The change in the statutes from "sitting" (ad experimentum) to "standing" (and no reference to sitting) in the definitive statutes is irrelevant to you? This is what I mean when I say you are stubborn and hard of heart.
Delete"If it was a correction, there would not be a single praise in their speech but only condemnation"
What a horrible parent you must be if you think that correction means you must condemn. I really hope this is just a flippant remark, and you don't actually believe what you have written.
Haha sorry this is funny and so sad. That is what the catechists told you in the lenten announcement one year ago to twist the pope's words? They used the words, suggestions to follow? To make you think you have a choice. From recommendations to mere suggestions, so it's like you're saying, we may or may not do what the pope suggested since it was simply a suggestion. if he didn't want to mention it he wouldn't have, if he didn't want to 'suggest' those three important changes he wouldn't have, BUT HE DID. So ask yourself have you ever given up living all the things which the ncw commands in order to foster unity? Have you ever not fostered unity and promoted the catholic church as one instead of just promoting the ncw? Have you ever thought of someone that left the ncw as being an outsider or someone who is lost just because he left the ncw? If you do these things or know people who do please stop this attitude. If the pope didn't hear the complaints and didn't realize they are very real he wouldn't have said them. So make sure you at least listen to those words. It is a form of oral law as well, isn't that how you obeyed for the Communion apparently? It's exactly the same thing even more since these 'recommendations' were made in public and are recorded on the internet for everyone to see and obey. Thank you
DeleteDear Keith at 3:54 pm,
DeleteThat is correct. We will not change the way we do the Eucharist until we are told by the Vatican because that is who we should follow. We also follow our Archbishop. He is the one who has spoken to the a Pope, and he even had an audience with the Pope. If the Archbishop had any doubt that the NCW was celebrating the Eucharist incorrectly, he can find out from the Pope. Yet, all I hear is that the Pope supports our Archbishop. I am sure that Rohr and company has already brought up the Eucharistic celebration of the Way to the Vatican delegation when they are here. If the NCW is actually celebrating the Eucharist incorrectly, the archbishop would have already heard from Archbishop Krebs. It isn't like the opposition is not trying to get the attention of the Vatican. Guam already has the attention of the Vatican, and a simple correction from them is all that is needed......IF that is really needed.
So far, without the change, the NCW has increased to more than a million members. The youths are extremely active in the communities, especially in WYD. The number of Redemptoris Mater Seminaries have also increased to 103. There are an increasing number of mission families and itinerants in the NCW. With all these positive things going for the NCW, do you ever wonder if the REAL cause of division is jealousy?
Dear Anonymous at 5:05 pm,
DeleteI said the speeches of the Popes to the NCW were not a correction.
Dear Keith at 5:06 pm,
DeleteAccording to Dictionary.com, the word "recommend" is defined (capitalization is mine):
1. to present as worthy of confidence, acceptance, use, etc.; commend; mention favorably:
"to recommend an applicant for a job; to recommend a book."
2. to represent or urge as advisable or expedient:
"to recommend caution."
3. to advise, as an alternative; SUGGESTt (a choice, course of action, etc.) as appropriate, beneficial, or the like:
"He recommended the blue-plate special. The doctor recommended special exercises for her."
4. to make desirable or attractive:
"a plan that has very little to recommend it."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/recommend?s=t
I do not see the word "correct" or "reprimand" associated with the word "recommend" in the dictionary. The only ones twisting words around has been you and the jungle. They use words like "correct" and "reprimand" in place of "recommend", which is an incorrect usage purposely done to discredit the Way.
Yes exactly recommend.. That is the word i always used. I never said reprimands. The point still stands that like no.2 and 3 from your english lesson says is a recommendation is for the better. So the pope would not have said them unless you could do better. And from your comments today you've shown everyone that you didn't bother to listen, to change (a very important aspect of catholic life).
DeleteAnd please, jealous of the ncw? No I know my feelings so you'll have to trust me when I say all my issues stem from sadness in seeing a church inside a church just like many people have been saying for these past 50 years.
DeleteDear Keith,
DeleteIf you knew all along what the word "recommend" meant, then why say this:
"Haha sorry this is funny and so sad. That is what the catechists told you in the lenten announcement one year ago to twist the pope's words? They used the words, suggestions to follow?"
For your information, the catechists did not tell me that. And we have taken the Pope's recommendation to heart....because as you already know "obedience" to God, Pope, Bishops, priests, and catechists is important. We are sure to obey the Pope's recommendations.
Dear Keith at 3:36 pm,
DeleteI am glad to hear that you are not jealous. Perhaps, we can work at your accepting us for who we are rather than you trying to change us. If your desire is only to change the NCW, then simply write a letter of complaint to the Vatican. If the NCW is truly not from God, you would have nothing to worry about as the Bible says:
Acts 5:38-39 So now I tell you, have nothing to do with these men, and let them go. For if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself. But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God.....
ReplyDeleteDiana, the rude priest who wrote on the blog concerning embalming is now now shouting over Guam telling people to shut their mouth. Several people have been told by this priest to shut their mouth. Last weeks in lobby St.Luke's hospital he shouted loud at Deacon Tenorio shut your mouth. Everyone looked. He shouted even louder. So we are calling him Fr. shutyourmouth.
Rohr was told in details by the delegates the situation in regards to Fr. Shutyourmouth. Rohr is very aware of the unstable mental condition of Fr. SYM but he allows it because just the tite "Fr." will persuade those traditionalists that Fr.SYM is an authentic representation of the suffering persecuted priest. Our local diocesan clergy can chime in at anytime and back up Fr. SYM but they havnt and wont. Why? because they have compassion for his disability and do not want to compromise the brotherhood. Indeed Fr. SYMs instability was so severe that Fr. Adrian could not deal with it, hence the pots and pans. Bishop Camacho was tasked at handling the situation and eventually was willing to take him into the Saipan Diocese but to no avail, his condition worsened. Brothers, we need to continue to pray for our church, especially our Clergy. They are under attack even more today. Some have been persuaded to turn against their ordinary. The devil does not care anymore about marriages, youth and sex. The devil has realized where to gain the most. If the devil has the priests break communion with each other he can then lead us(lay people) to break communion with our priests too. When we break communion with our priests we break communion with Gods direct representatives, the only human beings that are allowed the state of Persona Christi.
DeleteI admired Fr. Mike Crisostomo the other day as he entertained the questions of Patti Arroyo. Arroyo was picking and hoping that Fr. Mike would have been more vocal against the RMS formation but he didnt. When Arroyo realized that Fr. Mike was not going to answer as how she was hoping, she then redirected her approach. It was very obvious. As president of the ADCA(clergy association) Fr. Mike answered all the questions on a unified level, regardless of the difference of Formation of our DIOCESAN clergy, he without saying it revealed his realization that the CLERGY are ONE and may have some differences but are united in the ministry of the priesthood. The irony was when Rohr did not drag this beautiful interview onto the blog, I guess it didnt swing his was as hoped for. Every other interview that Arroyo has done has been published on junglewatch.
I hope these points make it more obvious to those who have fell victim to Rohrs plots to destroy the local church and get rid of Archbishop Anthony. I hope people acquaint themselves with the truth rather than what is portrayed by the Jungle. Get to know the truth rather than all the false half truths of those who oppose the Neocatechumenal Way.
To the neocatechumenal way members, esp. delta "force" and diana
ReplyDeleteIn the meeting of the NCW with Pope Francis in "2014" (last year) in Rome, the Pope said:
*The freedom of each one of you must not be "forced," and it must be "respected" EVEN IF one chooses to seek, OUTSIDE the Way, OTHER FORMS OF CHRISTIAN LIFE that may help him or her to grow in their answer to the Lord’s response.*
delta "force"" at 232AM says, "You are right, there are a few repulsive things in the Way. Liturgy is just one thing I do not care much for." and, "How could I choose any other life style? How could I throw away the gem I found just because it needs some cleaning?"
Dear delta force, so you too see that the NCW needs some cleaning. It seems you, like many other NCW members I know, don't like the NCW Mass either; yet. they go against their well-formed consciences.
Diana, you say to the rest of us non-neos, if you don't like our Mass, go elsewhere. Yet, Keith has decided he doesn't like the NCW Mass, and you print delta "force's" pleading to get him back as if THERE IS NO OTHER CHRISTIAN WAY. " Pope Francis clearly said to stop that."
Dear Delta Force, it looks like the Holy Spirit touched you and you discovered Jesus as your personal Saviior. This is very good. But, it is wrong to think Keith will loose his salvation just because he*s no longer in the NCW. Take a look at the speech Pope Francis gave the NCW in 2014. (last year) and be at peace.
Sincerely,
Dear Anonymous at 5:32 pm,
DeleteI made myself clear that the NCW is not for everyone just as the Traditional Latin Mass is not for everyone. If a person feels the NCW Mass is illicit, he can leave. That is his choice. If he/she wishes to return, he/she is always welcome to return. If they have found something outside the Way they feel will lead them to salvation, then that is great. But if what they found is so great, then why put down the NCW???
The Traditional Latin Mass is definitely not for me, but I never put the Latin Mass down. I prefer to go to the NCW Mass or the regular Mass in the parish. The NCW is not here to change the way they celebrate Mass for anyone. From what I understand, Keith found something that he is happy with. The question is.....if he is happy where he is then why continue to put down people in the NCW??
I think you need to read delta force's comments again. He agreed with Keith that if the game is dirty, then it is better to leave. Then he goes on to express why he chose to stay.
"The NCW is not here to change the way they celebrate Mass for anyone."
DeleteWhat does this mean? Who are "they". Its quite clear that the NCW does change the Mass. And as long as the NCW seeks new members, then it does actually "change the Mass ofr anyone". There seems to be a lot of nonsense talk going on here.
For a start, the Traditional Latin Mass, as you put it, is the so called "extraordinary form" of the Roman Rite. It is not some arbitrary, made up thing. It is as regulated (in writing) as the Ordinary form of the Roman Rite.
The NCW is supposed to be celebrating according to the Roman Rite, in the Ordinary Form, but does something else, without written permission, and apparently, according to this blog, as though it were a separate Rite itself. This is not only a mistake, because this incorrect definition appears to be quite deliberate by Diana and the other NCW spruikers. Instead of saying "the Traditional Latin Mass is not for everyone", you should be saying "the Roman Rite Mass is for everyone". Then there is the right sense of unity that is behind the intention of the Popes to support the Ordinary and Extraordinary form of the same Rite.
Dear Anonymous at 9:21 pm,
DeleteI already said that we have permission from Rome to celebrate the Mass the way we do. We will not follow anyone else except the Pope. Pope Francis recognize that the Way is obedient in our celebrations. The Traditional Latin Mass is not for me, and there is nothing wrong with saying that.....just as there is nothing wrong with saying that the NCW is not for you. Why is it that some people dictate what we should say "word for word?"
Dear Diana,
ReplyDeleteYou claim the NCW has permission to celebrate the Mass with all the additions and deletions because the Pope used the phrase "so obedient." Yet, when someone offers another explanation to the phrase "so obedient" in context with the whole speech that Pope Francis gave, which negates "your" permission for the Mass to be said with all its additions and deletions, you purposely decide that it has no merit. If that particular view has no merit, why are you afraid to print the letter? Should that writer be wrong, should you not be correcting that person's view? But, if that person is right, do you now not have the responsibility before God to give that viewpoint of theirs? Otherwise, are you, inadvertently, perpetuating falsehoods?
Sincerely and with prayer,
Dear Anonymous at 3:04 am,
DeleteIt is very obvious that the Pope was saying that we were obedient to our celebrations of the Word, Eucharist, and Convivience......which is what he was referring to:
"Therefore the obedient and constant listening to the Word of God; the Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday, the family celebration of lauds on Sunday with all the children gathered round and the sharing of one’s faith with other brothers and sisters are at the origin of the many gifts that the Lord has given to you, as well as the numerous vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life."
As you can see, the Pope listed down what we were obedient to and the Eucharistic celebration in small communities is one of them. Remember, that this is the Pope who ceased all investigations into the Way because all the allegations are unfounded.
Taking "so obedient" out of context is just like the secular world taking "who am I to judge" out of context of what the Pope said in totality.
ReplyDeleteWhen you take the whole speech of 2015 into account, it looks like the Pope was expanding the three dimensions the Way is based on: the Word, Liturgy, and Community.
- firstly - which are the Word, (so obedient and constant listening to the Word of God;)
- secondly - Liturgy (the Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday)
- thirdly - and Community. (the family celebration of lauds on Sunday with all the children gathered round and sharing their faith with other brothers and sisters are at the origin of the many gifts the Lord has given to you as well as the many vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life.)
It looks like "So obedient" just refers to opening up the Word of God on a regular basis. If the Pope ever said the NCW was "so obedient" in regards to the "additions and deletions" in the NCW Mass, he would be lying.
No disrespect to our great Pope.
To be continued.
----
Dear Anonymous at 8:01 am,
DeleteIsn't that what I just said in my previous comment???
The Pope said that we are obedient to three things. The Pope says that one of the things we are obedient to is the Eucharist. Then you ask about the "additions and deletions" in the NCW Mass? One does not separate the liturgy we celebrate from the Eucharist because the liturgy is in the Eucharist. So, when the Pope says that we are obedient in our celebration of the Eucharist, it means everything in the Eucharist.
"Isn't that what I just said in my previous comment???
DeleteActually its not Diana. The word "obedient" is said in relation to the Word - ie "obedient...listening to the Word"
You assert it is in relation to all three phrases (Word, Liturgy, convivence), but aside from the fact that it is clearly not, it can't be anyway because "obedient convivence" has no sense.
Dear Anonymous at 10:56 am,
DeleteThe convivience is when the community gets together. The covivience is also a celebration like the word. Why do you see the word "obedience" as being applicable ONLY to the celebration of the word.....when the Pope used all three in ONE sentence??
Diana, yes obedience to the word but not obedience to the convivence.
DeleteI was thinking of being a member of NCW .
I believe obedience to the word but not convivence.
When I'm in NCW some things I want to change . Plan to join group Fr. Pius said I need to wait six months, now time up. So I be joking now. but Fr. Say NCW not for everyone. I invite him Roy's for dinner to tell Fr. Pius my beliefs.
Dear Anonymous at 6:04 pm,
DeleteThe NCW is obedient in holding the word, the Eucharist, and the Convivience. The convivience is also considered a celebration because we do morning prayer and gospel reflections.
ReplyDeleteSadly, when the directions Popes issue, for the good of the whole church, are rejected, we then see comments such as from Pope Benedict XVI when he said "my authority ends at that door." Popes act slowly and carefully so as not to "break the bent reed." They do not want to divide the church.
May we all be ONE.
Examination of conscience: Do I hinder unity?
Dear Anonymous at 10:08 am,
DeleteThe history of the Church shows that she is not afraid to correct abuses. In fact, she is authorized to preserve the teachings of the church and Sacred Scripture. History shows that the Church has even burned the Bibles of the Jehovah Witnesses because they added words to Sacred Scripture. Since when has Jesus Christ (the Head of the Church) been so weak and so afraid to correct His Church?? Since when has the Church been afraid of division?? These are simply excuses you make.
Dear Diana, 12:34 pm
ReplyDeleteRe your: "Since when has Jesus Christ (the Head of the Church) been so weak and so afraid to correct His Church?? Since when has the Church been afraid of division?? "
Diana, why do you say I said Jesus Christ is weak and afraid to correct His Church; I never said such a thing!
Jesus in His Mercy and Love for us (me included) is "patiently" waiting for us to "straighten up" in areas where we are "bent." Sometimes, we can become oblivious to the correction that is given. Correction by the Church is sometimes mistakenly construed as criticism rather than the Father lovingly disciplining his children. Correction by the Church is sometimes not welcomed or accepted. Here pride erupts. We must decrease; Christ must increase.
The Church is not afraid of division; however, division is something Jesus hopes we correct.
John 17:21 says "that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father , art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me. "
Because of our disunity within the Church, we are poor witnesses of being followers of Christ and of His love.
Dear Anonymous at 1:56 pm,
DeletePatiently waiting?? It has already over 50 years. If the Church is going to correct the Way, they would have done it a long time ago. If Kiko is in disobedience, the Church would not award him any position in the Pontifical Council of the Laity. If there is disobedience, the investigations would not be dismissed but ongoing.
Re:DianaMarch 23, 2015 at 11:55 AM
ReplyDeleteYou say, "The convivience is when the community gets together. The covivience is also a celebration like the word. Why do you see the word "obedience" as being applicable ONLY to the celebration of the word.....when the Pope used all three in ONE sentence??"
Diana, here is the ONE sentence:
"So obedient and constant listening to the Word of God; the Eucharistic celebration in small community after the first Vespers of Sunday, the family celebration of lauds on Sunday with all the children gathered round and sharing their faith with other brothers and sisters are at the origin of the many gifts the Lord has given to you as well as the many vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life."
In the structure of the sentence, there is an important "semi-colon (;) " which "separates the mention of the Word of God from the Eucharistic celebration.
Sincerely,
Dear Anonymous at 2:21 pm,
DeleteThe rules of grammar:
Rule 3. Use a semicolon to separate units of a series when one or more of the units contain commas.
Incorrect: The conference has people who have come from Moscow, Idaho, Springfield, California, Alamo, Tennessee, and other places as well.
Note that with only commas, that sentence is hopeless.
Correct: The conference has people who have come from Moscow, Idaho; Springfield, California; Alamo, Tennessee; and other places as well.
https://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/semicolons.asp
Diana:
ReplyDeleteRules of grammar on semicolon -- There is more than one rule. Check it out again.
Dear Anonymous at 12:40 am,
DeleteYes, I know. This rule applies to this particular sentence. That is the problem with legalism....too much into the law and trivial things, and nothing of the spirit.