Please keep your comments civil. Any mockery, derision, or name-calling of me or other commentors will not be published. If you come here only to bash the Neocatechumenal Way, your comments will also not be published. Any hate comments will be deleted. Also, please make your comments in English. If you are unable to write in English, please get someone who can help you. Some parishes are now advertising for the upcoming catechesis. Anyone who is interested or even curious to learn about the Way is welcome to listen to the catechesis. If you find that the Way is not for you after listening to the catechesis, then please move on and peace be with you. Remember that the Way is not for everyone just as the ordained priesthood is not for everyone.
Often times in our zeal for the evangelization, we often forget that it is not about us, NCW, or even church but Jesus. We are so tempted to mold everyone in a particular image, language, and even theology that we forget again that it is about bringing everyone back to the Father's embrace. Do not exclude but strive for inclusion.
After the trip to the Philippines, Pope Francis gave an interview on his plane flying back to Rome. He said, among other important things: "Every people deserves to conserve its identity without being ideologically colonized." It is justified to say that ideological colonization is reference to the methods of the neo. A little more elaborated concern was expressed in a letter written by the bishops of the Holy Land to the neocatechumenal leadership in 2007, saying:
"We also ask you to undertake a serious study of the language and culture of the people, as a sign of respect for them and as a means of understanding their soul and their history, in the context of the Holy Land: religious, cultural, and national pluralism. Moreover, in our countries – Palestine, Israel, Jordan – everyone is searching for peace and justice, a search that is an integral part of our Christian life. All preaching should guide our faithful in taking concrete stances in the various contexts of life and in the continuing conflict in Palestine: an attitude of forgiveness and of love for one’s enemy and, on the other hand, demand for one’s rights, especially dignity, freedom, and justice. We ask you to preach a Gospel incarnated in life, a Gospel that illuminates all aspects of life and roots the faithful in Jesus Christ Risen and in their entire human, cultural, and ecclesial environment."
Diana, I am sorry you seem to misunderstand me. i did not say anything about the Jews. I was talking about the Catholic bishops of the Holy Land who wrote this letter back in 2007. You may know that there are many Christian denominations in the Holy Land, some of the Catholic, some of them Protestants or even non-denominational. So the identity and culture is very important and characteristic among these Holy Land Christians. It is a very nicely written letter, expressing the concern of cultural colonization by neocatechumenal recruiters. I give you the link so that you may read for yourself. Please, do so!
The weblink you gave is an anti-Neo website. The weblink I gave came from a Jewish newspaper. The Jewish news would be more credible because it is coming from the Jews themselves.
Dear whisper, The Pope's comment on ideological colonization, came with a recommendation of a book: Benson's "The Lord of the World". Have you read it? The Holy Father clearly stated that if you want to understand what he means by ideological colonization, you need to read that book. Or do you actually care what his holiness wanted to say, instead of using his words promptly for your rather one sided view of things?
Well, dear Anonymous on January 22, 2015 at 6:41 PM, I am reading Benson's book now, because I would like to understand exactly what the Holy Father was talking about. My question was to whisper, whether he/she read the book and whether he/she gave a farthing about what the Pope was trying to convey before quickly concluding that "It is justified to say that ideological colonization is reference to the methods of the neo." Do you also think this is what Pope Francis had in mind when he spoke about ideological colonization? I am not convinced . I shall see what to think after having read the book.
Dear Zoltan, If you wish to know my whereabouts, I will be glad to let you know in private. Please write a comment on the following site: iternc.wordpress.com (I won't publish it) Make sure you include some kind of a contact where I can reach you. Many thanks.
"Do you also think this is what Pope Francis had in mind when he spoke about ideological colonization?"
The NCW is the foremost example of "ideological colonisation" in the Church nowadays, and has been often criticised for this. So , yes I think its highly likely that the Pope was referring to those groups in the Church that ruthlessly impose a certain culture on others, such as the NCW
@ AnonymousJanuary 23, 2015 at 11:45 AM The Pope was referring to groups in the Church? And you deduce this from the words of the Pope and from having read the book he mentioned? And not from your own "ruthlessly" prejudiced view of the NCW? Excuse me but I am obliged to conclude that it is not reasoning which brought you to these conclusions, in which case it is useless to appeal to that reason (which is what I was trying to do by questioning). In case you haven't done it yet, please do read the transcript of the Pope's words: http://americamagazine.org/content/dispatches/full-transcript-popes-press-conference-flight-manila
Diana, I appreciate your honesty in this new post. Could you, please, then tell me why do keep trowing out my comments? Do you have a grumble against me?
Your comment has been published. Please keep it civil. It is always best to ask questions about the Neocatechumenal Way the way Keith does rather than throw accusations.
It is both. The community is aware that everyone has a vocation in life. They simply have to discover what that vocation is....whether it is a single life, a married life, or a religious life called to the priesthood or convent. They have to discern what vocation God is calling them to.
vocation in the communities and their formation has only come lately. In the past, members of the community who have discovered the call to the priesthood would normally go and do it outside the community. It is only a recent development that those who have the vocations are going to monthly meet ups and eventually go to Rome to meet and be placed in the seminaries. Not all seminaries are affiliated with the Lateran University.RMS with the Gregorian U. RMS NJ with Seton Hall Uni.
Pope Francis is talking about poor people who can barely survive still reproduce "like rabbits". Why is that? If Christ sets us free then you cannot enslave women into a life time of breeding. Social justice and gender equity are most needed concepts in the modern church. Wee have to work hard to forward these noble causes around the globe. After the great progresses made by the civil rights movements in the 20th century, finally the Catholic Church is also coming to the realization that injustices must be eliminated. Everyone deserves freedom from poverty and a quality life.
VOF I tottaly disagree with you on this statement you have here ======> Everyone deserves freedom from poverty and a quality life. Yes Christ teaches us to live like kings and there is nothing wrong of being rich but give to the poor are who in need but our goal is the kingdom of heaven not here and Christ teaches built your treasure in Heaven.
The Church teaches a natural and accepted way of birth control/family planning. People do follow this method, and it is wrong to automatically ASSUME a couple is on birth control methods not accepted by the Church. So this is what the Pope is referring to. It is not against Church teaching to have a smaller family and be able to provide within your means.
Dear Diana, if you are serious, you do not throw out the comments from any one singular person. I am talking for Jolene, who was personally attacked by someone on your blog and she was not allowed to respond. Are you biased against her?
It was Jolene who was being uncivil. She made the first attack by accusing those in the Way of not showing any respect to The Lord. The Eastern Catholics do not kneel. In fact, they do not have any kneelers in their Church, but their liturgies are accepted by Rome. It was Jolene who first stated the following:
JoleneJanuary 13, 2015 at 9:51 AM I believe everything you say, Diana. Lol! I just ask questions. Why do you handle RMS money separately from parish money and church money? Is not the church ONE? I don't care about investigation and such. I just wanna hear straight answer. Why don't you ever sing the songs of the ONE church? Why do you sit down once you have received the host in holy mass? Why don't you show respect to the Lord by standing until the host is consumed? Why do you disrespect the holy service by chatting about your personal business into microphone during mass? Shall I ask more?
As you can see, she has already accused the Way of being disrespectful. Shall she continue to ask more??? She does not need if her motive is to bash the Way by accusing us of being disrespectful. How is it disrespectful to speak of how God helped us in our life. The Apostles Paul spoke about how God was merciful to him despite that he persecuted Christians. St. Paul spoke about how God changed his life that he no longer persecuted Christians.
Dear Diana, I appreciate your effort to clear up this thing. I cannot write as eloquently as Jolene. ;) But I agree with her in one important thing. We respect Church hierarchy. We do not question the decisions of Vatican officials who we believe know much better than we do. We do respect the Holy Order of the Church which means every priest and every bishop is part of this holiness. We do not agree with Tim Rohr that the Archbishop has to be removed. This is not our business here on Guam to decide.
However, we do have a lot of questions about the neos that you are part of. That is the reason we write here. We would like to see the neos leaving us Catholics alone and evangelize the pagans or the Protestants. We do not want the neos to go away from Guam, we just want to have a peaceful coexistence. I hope you understand me right. We do not want to become neos, because we do not agree with you in so many things. But we extend our arms of tolerance in the spirit of Vatican 2.
First of all, "we neos" as you call us are Catholics. We do evangelize the pagans and our Christian brothers. But we also appeal to fellow Catholics who are no longer attending Church and Catholics who want to deepen their faith. According to our approved Statutes:
§ 1. The Neocatechumenate is an instrument at the service of the bishops for the rediscovery of Christian initiation by baptized adults. Among these adults, the following may be identified:10 1st. those who have drifted away from the Church; 2nd. those who have not been sufficiently evangelized and catechized; 3rd. those who desire to deepen and mature their faith; 4th. those who come from Christian denominations not in full communion with the Catholic Church. § 2. Clerics and religious who desire to revive the gift of Baptism through the Neocatechumenate, and in this way also to serve it better, undertake it respecting their vocation and their own charisms, and in fulfillment of the tasks assigned them by their diocesan bishop or, in the case of religious, by their superior.11 For religious, the superior’s consent is also required.
Our Catechesis is only once a year. We not only go into the Churches, but also out into the villages and workplaces to hand out invitations to the catechesis. I was a Catholic who only go to Sunday Masses before I joined the Way. After I joined the Way, I got more involved in my parish. We are helping our parish Church to grow. The Vatican allows us to attend the regular Sunday Mass once a month. However, people who have gotten involved in their parish by doing volunteer work as Lectors, Eucharistic Ministers, alter servers, and even joining the church choir are attending Sunday Mass more than once a month as is required by the Vatican. There are four people in my community who are even attending daily mass in addition to the Sunday Mass and Eucharistic celebrations.
Dear Diana, my impression is that you may be a little strict in your regulation. You should let people express their minds freely until they do this in a civilized manner. You should not be afraid to let them speak. The last two posts elicited close to and over 100 comments each! This is a great thing, receive my congratulations! I read a whole lot of very interesting comments at these two posts. This is a healthy diversity of views that any blog owner can be proud of!
One improvement I see could be a better identification of comments. I admit my real name is not bernardin, but I choose this pseudonym to identify my comments. You are also not Diana in real life, I guess, but your personality is coming through very nicely as "Diana". So it might be beneficial for anyone to give themselves a pseudonym in the drop-down list, I used to choose the Name/URL option and simply type in "bernardin". Even anonymous commenters may use this option to call themselves anonymous_one, anonymous_yona, etc. whatever you like. The point is that your comments would not be lost in the ocean of 100 anonymous comments, but would give you a face. of course, this is an absolutely safe option in blogspot, nobody could find you out if you do not want to reveal your real life name and identity.
I hope my points could contribute to a better and more civilized flow of thoughts and comments on your blog, Diana.
I believe in freedom of expression, but freedom of expression does not mean that one can say whatever they want. Vulgar language, name calling, and any comments meant to demean a commentor will not be published. Discussions that goes around in circles are not effective in dialogues. However, I like your idea of using pseudonyms rather than anonymous. The use of pseudonyms could easily identify who wrote which comments.
Diana, I was attacked on your blog that I came from Jungle Watch and I agree with them in everything. It is not true. Just check the dates, please. I have never commented on Jungle Watch before I had that argument with you here. I have never demanded the resignation of Apuron for example whom I consider the Archbishop of Guam until further news from Vatican. I also think he should be respected as such.
Only Vatican can change this situation with direct interference or the lack of it and until this happens we have to follow current church authority and leaders. I have no problem with that.
Saying this, I had to inform Tim Rohr that he was called a "plumber" on your blog multiple times. Tim claims he was able to uncover your because of your misconception about him being a plumber. There are only a few ladies on the whole island who could make such an assumption.
Please check the date when I contacted Jungle Watch. I only happened after I had received that treatment at your blog. You did not allow my best comment ever that I had spent hours to write. This was extremely unfriendly act, considering that as a consequence my best comment was completely lost by this censure. I don't even have the text of my own comment anymore. Do you think it was right, Diana?
I already know that that was the first time you posted in the jungle. I am sorry that you feel that I was being unfair. But as Catholics, we do not interpret the Bible. Only Protestant Christians do that. It is very clear from the Catechism that I cited to you that individual interpretations are not allowed by the Church.
Furthermore, the jungle is not only demanding the resignation of the Archbishop. They also want to see the Way destroyed. Also, I did not know that Tim Rohr was a plumber. It was a commentor on my blog who first made that statement. I only know that Tim was in Real Estate until one of the commenters mentioned in my blog that he was also a plumber.
First of all, I am sorry, I submitted my comment as a reply for the wrong comment, meaning I wanted it 2 comments above this place... Anyway. I think we are over that exchange about interpretations already. I learned a lot from other comments in your topic, although I could not contribute to the discussion myself. But learning about Christ's words is always a joy for me.
I found that there is an impression that everyone who asks questions here is against the Archbishop. It is not true. I simply don't feel qualified to criticize the Archbishop directly, because evaluating his actions is a matter of high ranking Church officials, cardinals and nuncios etc, that I have no business to comment on. I mean, a priest or bishop is like the Church itself for me, I follow what they tell me and learn about everything Catholic from them. Until the Archbishop is in office, he is part of the Holy Church and that is more then sufficient for me.
It is quite different for the Neocatechumenal Way, which is not an official Church body, it is called an "itinerary" as I heard. So why can't I criticize what I see problematic? If you ask me why don't I join the neos, I have to be able to argue. This is what I am trying to do. I tell you what people find strange in the neo at the first sight. I can tell you this, because I visited the Barrigada 4th community a while ago and I had the first impression of many things myself.
Believe me, most people ask the same questions. For example, your standing and sitting during Eucharist is quite confusing. You never ever kneel during service, for example. People sense a lack of regard for the holiness of the Holy Host when you do this. You consume the bread while sitting but drink the wine while standing. Why? Why do you handle the bread and wine differently? It is actually both the same thing, both are the body and blood of Christ. Do you see how confusing it is for people who experience this at the first time?
You say the Jungle Watch wants the neo to be destroyed. How? I do not see any realistic way for that. I mean you guys are safe, you are not in danger of destruction in any sense at all. Those people at Tim are dreaming of false and ridiculous dreams. I completely disagree with them on this. I am absolutely ready to live with the neos in the same Church for a long, long time. It is not my way to the Lord, but I accept that it is for some. You still have to defend your manners to people if you want them to believe you, because I do not think you guys are better than us.
thank you for clarifying your points Jolene.....and your honesty.
the NCW is not for everyone simply because the call from God can only be heard from the heart and answered through the heart.
there are many coming to the catechesis with the intent of comparing their knowledge of scripture...of their faith....of their religion to the catechesis....and evaluating the people presenting the catechesis.
In truth, the catechesis team are just messengers presenting the Word of God....nothing else. They are not experts in theology and or priest....nor do they give homilies.
Proclaiming the Word of God does not require interpretations.....God provides the answers....it stands by itself...it does not need to be defended. The catechesis is not a question and answer session.
The open heart always receives the answer....not through our intellect.
Thank you, I know the neo is not for everyone. Blessed Diego and St Pedro have never been neos. Now, they are praying and interceding for us in heaven. They knew the Word if God by heart, they did not need the catechesis of Kiko to become holy. This is true for all the holy men and women, for all the saints of the Catholic Church. But I accept that for some people the neocathecumenal thing works.
How can you say catechist teams are messengers from God when they are messengers of the neo? You say they are presenting the Word of God when they are presenting the dictionary of Kiko lesson by lesson? Are you trying to replace the Word of God by the word of Kiko? I do not blame you to interpret the Bible the way you do as long as you are in line with the Magisterium.
I agree with Jack that you should keep our Sunday masses free of neo propaganda. We are Catholics, no worse than any of you. Why don't you leave us mainstream Catholics alone and go out to the Protestant churches on their Sunday services to make your proclamation to them? They are the ones who need to hear you and not us. Why don't you try to convert those Protestant sisters and brothers who are entangled in their human interpretations of the Bible and do not know the true meaning of the Word of God? Don't you think they would need you guys better than we do?
I just ask you, please, do not trash your own intellect. It was given to you by God. Being smart is a blessing, but being silly is a burden that can be overcome. I will also pray for you, so that you understand that Christ does not have a secret teaching proclaimed in dark and hidden church halls for the few select. Christ has a teaching available freely for everyone in the gospels that is to be proclaimed high voice from the hill tops in sacred spaces, like inside our beautiful church building on sunny Sunday mornings.
Jolene dear I take issue with ur veiled insults. First u say u just want to ask questions making people think u actually have questions and want to dialogue. Then u insult. Anyone announcing the good news is a messenger of God. The Catechesis is the teaching of the church. And there is nothing dark or secret about it. I have a BA and an MA and consider myself pretty smart. Do not patronize me calling me "silly" bc I am in a community and choose to live the one faith in the way. Perhaps the problem that u have with the way is that u just don't understand the catechism and really don't understand church teaching. Thank goodness the popes don't have that problem and PUBLICLY support the way. If you really had any idea about church history or the catechism you would understand that what you call propaganda is the announcement f the good news. These people give glory to God by telling others what he has done in their lives. Calling it propaganda is insulting the Holy Spirit. They are Transmitting the promise that God wants to act in the life of all people. And announcing the love of God for the sinners. And inviting people to listen to an announcemt of the the love of God is a service. If you had any idea of what it means to be catholic you would respond thanking God for allowing you to witnes his action in others and you would be reminded of his action I your life. nothing is more distasteful than someone who does not know lecturing people on what they should know. Go read a book.
Jolene post in Jungle Watch and use it to ridicule and mock whatever we say. Diana Jolene intentions is not to dialogue but discredit every person here that belong to a community.
What a wretched heart Jolene you'll answer to GOD with a big price.
Our Statutes says that we can invite Catholics who want to deepen their faith. You do not have to come, but why are you denying other Catholics who want to join????
Anon at 8:41 AM, you are being unjust. I explained my standpoint which is the same of what Jack said. I clarified that after my comment was thrown out from here I published in Jungle Watch. That's it. Diana accepted what I said. Why do you say I want to ridicule and mock whatever you say? It is not true.
I am different from you and my views collide with yours. Collision is okay until it prompts honest and open discussion. You cannot see the stand points clearly if you do not try to collide them and see the sparks flying all around. I agree that one has to be civilized. This applies to everyone, not to one side only or the other. So please, try to tolerate my standpoint.
I said we do not agree with the radicals in Jungle Watch who try to depose the Archbishop. We don't want to get involved in such things. We respect church hierarchy. But we cannot be silent about the neos who come into our churches. We want to share our view even if opposing yours. I had visited the Barrigada 4th community a while ago. I wanted to see if it is true or not what you neos claim about Jesus. I gave account. We don't want to do those things I saw there. So please don't hate me because of that.
If I am attacked here and my integrity is questioned because I am not one of you, then I will just leave and Jack will do the same. Thanks.
We do evangelize non Catholics. B but we also listen to the popes who say that Catholics need to be re-evangelized. Most Catholics do not know what the Faith is or what the church teaches. And most Catholics do not live according to the teaching of the church. jesus first looked for the lost sheep of the house of israel then when to the pagans. People with a serious adult faith in the church are few and far between. i don't say that Ratzinger did and so did JP2.
Anonymous 8:41 am is correct. You come in here and called our music "strange noise." Then you call our testimony "propaganda." These are all disrespectful insults, and you expect us to be tolerant of you????? You say that you are being attacked???? How are you being attacked when you are the one throwing the insults?
Diana, I dont see any Neo's invite non-catholics anywhere on guam as actively as you all are 'inviting' our already Catholic parishioners in our Catholic Churches.
I hope you understand what i'm saying. Your statutes clearly says to evangelize non Catholics yet its not done..you know what I mean?
Its just so ironic. If Kiko was able to do this back in his starting days...then why are you guys not doing this now. We have so many christian sects that are clearly off track...and yet you are all in our Catholic Churches.
to anon 7:16pm.....no you do not evangelize to non catholics here on Guam...please show me how you are doing this..
I approached a pastor from a born again christian and asked her if she had ever heard of Neocathemunal Way....all she said was...'i just read them in the papers"
You cannot even see the "Neos" who attend parish Mass and build up your parish; therefore, how can we expect you to see the non- Catholics we brought in the Way?
I went to mass this morning and heard the Gospel that spoke of these sticklers to the Law, the Pharisees, criticizing Jesus because he healed a man with a withered hand on the Sabbath! Despite the miracle, the manifestation of God’s power and grace, these individuals could not bring themselves to praise God that a human being had been made well. The letter of the law overwhelmed them.
This is happening here in Guam. Some vociferous voices do not yet see, and perhaps do not care, that people are cured of drugs, they do not care that marriages are being healed, they do not give a damn about children being born, they do not see the number of youth coming back to mass and confession through their participation in the Neocatechumenal Way. Their obsession is whether we stand or kneel and whether we let people know of the upcoming catechesis at the end or during the mass. How sad.
“Looking around at them with anger and grieved at their hardness of heart, he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out and his hand was restored. The Pharisees went out and immediately took counsel with the Herodians against him to put him to death.” And yes they are taking counsel of how to put us to death.
It's not about the good that the NCW does...it's about the bad that their leaders do. You all need to learn to separate the two. You do not need KIKO or the NCW to continue your journey with God the way you do now. No one i saying that the those who left drugs or had their marriage saved are meaningless; we are against the elitist and abusive ways of the NCW Leadership. Plain and simple...don't twist my words or respond off topic Diana.
AnonymousJanuary 23, 2015 at 1:46 AM A seminary that did not come from your pocket but your pennies went to Tim Rohr instead. How bout that for a spin off.
Archbishop did not give OUR Yona Seminary Property away to “them”. This is an Archdiocesan seminary. It still belongs to Archbishop and the Church in Guam. It is still ours. Please check the facts before you believe the lies of Tim Horror or the Concerned Catholics.
I do not live in Guam but have followed this discussion in Guam about the Neocatechumenal Way. In the beginning, it was the whole Neocatechumenal Way was wrong. Now it is the leaders who are wrong. Can you decide, please, who is wrong? My simple observation is : If the fruit is good, how can the tree be wrong? If the tree has been approved and lauded by the Church authorities, how can it be wrong?
Diana you are right. Guam wants him gone. AAA needs to go and the Vatican needed to see that Guam has two Catholic Churches. If AAA is the root of the problem- get rid of the problem. The visitors agreed and even told the Clergy that things will change. Ciao!
Yes, the Vatican delegation told the clergy that things will change. Haven't you notice that Deacon Steve has been very quiet? He had until January 19th to decide whether he should join CCOG or not. Have you heard from him? Perhaps, the delegation reminded all the priests and deacons to respect and obey the bishop who ordained them?
The word "angel" means messenger. We are all called to be messengers proclaiming the Gospels to all people. In fact, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that the women were the first messengers who went to the Apostles and told them of the Good News.....Christ risen from the dead.
Anyone announcing the good news is an angel. Angels are messengers from God to the world. Being ridiculed bc of the announcement is a form of martyrdom. It is called white martyrdom. U sure u want to ridicule people who are giving witness of the love of God? I mean feel free. After all it is btw u and God.
Isaias GinsonJanuary 23, 2015 at 12:31 PM - you also don't belong to a community nor the Catholic Church. You select to apostatize yourself. Why bother??????
Not all of us are chosen to be light and salt
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 4:20 pm,
DeleteAll of us are called to be the light and the salt. But one can be the light and salt only with Christ for with God all things are possible.
Dear Anonymous at 4:20 pm,
DeleteAll of us are called to be the light and the salt. But one can be the light and salt only with Christ for with God all things are possible.
The NCW needs to STOP coming into the churches and FORCE us to listen to their testimonies!! Why don't you get it
DeleteAnon 4:20PM uuhhhhhh speak for yourself.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:33 pm,
DeleteThat is not your Church. You did not build any Church. That is God's Church. God built the Church, and He is the one who guides His Church.
Often times in our zeal for the evangelization, we often forget that it is not about us, NCW, or even church but Jesus. We are so tempted to mold everyone in a particular image, language, and even theology that we forget again that it is about bringing everyone back to the Father's embrace. Do not exclude but strive for inclusion.
ReplyDeleteAfter the trip to the Philippines, Pope Francis gave an interview on his plane flying back to Rome. He said, among other important things: "Every people deserves to conserve its identity without being ideologically colonized." It is justified to say that ideological colonization is reference to the methods of the neo. A little more elaborated concern was expressed in a letter written by the bishops of the Holy Land to the neocatechumenal leadership in 2007, saying:
ReplyDelete"We also ask you to undertake a serious study of the language and culture of the people, as a sign of respect for them and as a means of understanding their soul and their history, in the context of the Holy Land: religious, cultural, and national pluralism. Moreover, in our countries – Palestine, Israel, Jordan – everyone is searching for peace and justice, a search that is an integral part of our Christian life. All preaching should guide our faithful in taking concrete stances in the various contexts of life and in the continuing conflict in Palestine: an attitude of forgiveness and of love for one’s enemy and, on the other hand, demand for one’s rights, especially dignity, freedom, and justice. We ask you to preach a Gospel incarnated in life, a Gospel that illuminates all aspects of life and roots the faithful in Jesus Christ Risen and in their entire human, cultural, and ecclesial environment."
Dear whisper,
DeleteThe Neocatechumenal Way has an excellent relationship with the Jewish people. See the weblink below:
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/concert_reconciliation
Diana, I am sorry you seem to misunderstand me. i did not say anything about the Jews. I was talking about the Catholic bishops of the Holy Land who wrote this letter back in 2007. You may know that there are many Christian denominations in the Holy Land, some of the Catholic, some of them Protestants or even non-denominational. So the identity and culture is very important and characteristic among these Holy Land Christians. It is a very nicely written letter, expressing the concern of cultural colonization by neocatechumenal recruiters. I give you the link so that you may read for yourself. Please, do so!
Deletehttp://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/124623?eng=y
Dear whisper,
DeleteThe weblink you gave is an anti-Neo website. The weblink I gave came from a Jewish newspaper. The Jewish news would be more credible because it is coming from the Jews themselves.
Dear whisper,
DeleteThe Pope's comment on ideological colonization, came with a recommendation of a book: Benson's "The Lord of the World". Have you read it? The Holy Father clearly stated that if you want to understand what he means by ideological colonization, you need to read that book.
Or do you actually care what his holiness wanted to say, instead of using his words promptly for your rather one sided view of things?
Szia nagyszakall, honnan jelentkezel? Where are you writing from?
DeleteDear nagyszakall, yes I have read the "Lord of the World". It is a quaint book about the end-times and the AntiChrist. What is your point?
DeleteWell, dear Anonymous on January 22, 2015 at 6:41 PM,
DeleteI am reading Benson's book now, because I would like to understand exactly what the Holy Father was talking about. My question was to whisper, whether he/she read the book and whether he/she gave a farthing about what the Pope was trying to convey before quickly concluding that "It is justified to say that ideological colonization is reference to the methods of the neo." Do you also think this is what Pope Francis had in mind when he spoke about ideological colonization?
I am not convinced . I shall see what to think after having read the book.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteIf you wish to know my whereabouts, I will be glad to let you know in private. Please write a comment on the following site: iternc.wordpress.com (I won't publish it)
Make sure you include some kind of a contact where I can reach you.
Many thanks.
"Do you also think this is what Pope Francis had in mind when he spoke about ideological colonization?"
DeleteThe NCW is the foremost example of "ideological colonisation" in the Church nowadays, and has been often criticised for this. So , yes I think its highly likely that the Pope was referring to those groups in the Church that ruthlessly impose a certain culture on others, such as the NCW
@ AnonymousJanuary 23, 2015 at 11:45 AM
DeleteThe Pope was referring to groups in the Church?
And you deduce this from the words of the Pope and from having read the book he mentioned?
And not from your own "ruthlessly" prejudiced view of the NCW?
Excuse me but I am obliged to conclude that it is not reasoning which brought you to these conclusions, in which case it is useless to appeal to that reason (which is what I was trying to do by questioning).
In case you haven't done it yet, please do read the transcript of the Pope's words:
http://americamagazine.org/content/dispatches/full-transcript-popes-press-conference-flight-manila
Diana, I appreciate your honesty in this new post. Could you, please, then tell me why do keep trowing out my comments? Do you have a grumble against me?
ReplyDeleteDear Jolene,
DeleteYour comment has been published. Please keep it civil. It is always best to ask questions about the Neocatechumenal Way the way Keith does rather than throw accusations.
Does the community tell a young man or woman they have a vocation? Or do they discover that xall themselves?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 2:00 am,
DeleteIt is both. The community is aware that everyone has a vocation in life. They simply have to discover what that vocation is....whether it is a single life, a married life, or a religious life called to the priesthood or convent. They have to discern what vocation God is calling them to.
vocation in the communities and their formation has only come lately. In the past, members of the community who have discovered the call to the priesthood would normally go and do it outside the community. It is only a recent development that those who have the vocations are going to monthly meet ups and eventually go to Rome to meet and be placed in the seminaries.
DeleteNot all seminaries are affiliated with the Lateran University.RMS with the Gregorian U. RMS NJ with Seton Hall Uni.
Pope Francis is talking about poor people who can barely survive still reproduce "like rabbits". Why is that? If Christ sets us free then you cannot enslave women into a life time of breeding. Social justice and gender equity are most needed concepts in the modern church. Wee have to work hard to forward these noble causes around the globe. After the great progresses made by the civil rights movements in the 20th century, finally the Catholic Church is also coming to the realization that injustices must be eliminated. Everyone deserves freedom from poverty and a quality life.
DeleteWell the way is 50 years old and this "development" is at least 30 years old. Not so recent.
DeleteDear voice of faith,
DeleteI hope you are not suggesting that married couples take contraceptives. The Church is against contraceptives and so Is the Way.
VOF I tottaly disagree with you on this statement you have here ======> Everyone deserves freedom from poverty and a quality life. Yes Christ teaches us to live like kings and there is nothing wrong of being rich but give to the poor are who in need but our goal is the kingdom of heaven not here and Christ teaches built your treasure in Heaven.
DeleteThe Church teaches a natural and accepted way of birth control/family planning. People do follow this method, and it is wrong to automatically ASSUME a couple is on birth control methods not accepted by the Church. So this is what the Pope is referring to. It is not against Church teaching to have a smaller family and be able to provide within your means.
DeleteDear Diana, if you are serious, you do not throw out the comments from any one singular person. I am talking for Jolene, who was personally attacked by someone on your blog and she was not allowed to respond. Are you biased against her?
ReplyDeleteDear Jack,
DeleteIt was Jolene who was being uncivil. She made the first attack by accusing those in the Way of not showing any respect to The Lord. The Eastern Catholics do not kneel. In fact, they do not have any kneelers in their Church, but their liturgies are accepted by Rome. It was Jolene who first stated the following:
JoleneJanuary 13, 2015 at 9:51 AM
I believe everything you say, Diana. Lol! I just ask questions. Why do you handle RMS money separately from parish money and church money? Is not the church ONE? I don't care about investigation and such. I just wanna hear straight answer. Why don't you ever sing the songs of the ONE church? Why do you sit down once you have received the host in holy mass? Why don't you show respect to the Lord by standing until the host is consumed? Why do you disrespect the holy service by chatting about your personal business into microphone during mass? Shall I ask more?
As you can see, she has already accused the Way of being disrespectful. Shall she continue to ask more??? She does not need if her motive is to bash the Way by accusing us of being disrespectful. How is it disrespectful to speak of how God helped us in our life. The Apostles Paul spoke about how God was merciful to him despite that he persecuted Christians. St. Paul spoke about how God changed his life that he no longer persecuted Christians.
Dear Diana, I appreciate your effort to clear up this thing. I cannot write as eloquently as Jolene. ;) But I agree with her in one important thing. We respect Church hierarchy. We do not question the decisions of Vatican officials who we believe know much better than we do. We do respect the Holy Order of the Church which means every priest and every bishop is part of this holiness. We do not agree with Tim Rohr that the Archbishop has to be removed. This is not our business here on Guam to decide.
DeleteHowever, we do have a lot of questions about the neos that you are part of. That is the reason we write here. We would like to see the neos leaving us Catholics alone and evangelize the pagans or the Protestants. We do not want the neos to go away from Guam, we just want to have a peaceful coexistence. I hope you understand me right. We do not want to become neos, because we do not agree with you in so many things. But we extend our arms of tolerance in the spirit of Vatican 2.
Dear Jack,
DeleteFirst of all, "we neos" as you call us are Catholics. We do evangelize the pagans and our Christian brothers. But we also appeal to fellow Catholics who are no longer attending Church and Catholics who want to deepen their faith. According to our approved Statutes:
§ 1. The Neocatechumenate is an instrument at the service of the bishops for the rediscovery of Christian initiation by baptized adults. Among these adults, the following may be identified:10 1st. those who have drifted away from the Church; 2nd. those who have not been sufficiently evangelized and catechized; 3rd. those who desire to deepen and mature their faith; 4th. those who come from Christian denominations not in full communion with the Catholic Church. § 2. Clerics and religious who desire to revive the gift of Baptism through the Neocatechumenate, and in this way also to serve it better, undertake it respecting their vocation and their own charisms, and in fulfillment of the tasks assigned them by their diocesan bishop or, in the case of religious, by their superior.11 For religious, the superior’s consent is also required.
Our Catechesis is only once a year. We not only go into the Churches, but also out into the villages and workplaces to hand out invitations to the catechesis. I was a Catholic who only go to Sunday Masses before I joined the Way. After I joined the Way, I got more involved in my parish. We are helping our parish Church to grow. The Vatican allows us to attend the regular Sunday Mass once a month. However, people who have gotten involved in their parish by doing volunteer work as Lectors, Eucharistic Ministers, alter servers, and even joining the church choir are attending Sunday Mass more than once a month as is required by the Vatican. There are four people in my community who are even attending daily mass in addition to the Sunday Mass and Eucharistic celebrations.
Dear Diana, my impression is that you may be a little strict in your regulation. You should let people express their minds freely until they do this in a civilized manner. You should not be afraid to let them speak. The last two posts elicited close to and over 100 comments each! This is a great thing, receive my congratulations! I read a whole lot of very interesting comments at these two posts. This is a healthy diversity of views that any blog owner can be proud of!
ReplyDeleteOne improvement I see could be a better identification of comments. I admit my real name is not bernardin, but I choose this pseudonym to identify my comments. You are also not Diana in real life, I guess, but your personality is coming through very nicely as "Diana". So it might be beneficial for anyone to give themselves a pseudonym in the drop-down list, I used to choose the Name/URL option and simply type in "bernardin". Even anonymous commenters may use this option to call themselves anonymous_one, anonymous_yona, etc. whatever you like. The point is that your comments would not be lost in the ocean of 100 anonymous comments, but would give you a face. of course, this is an absolutely safe option in blogspot, nobody could find you out if you do not want to reveal your real life name and identity.
I hope my points could contribute to a better and more civilized flow of thoughts and comments on your blog, Diana.
Dear Bernadin,
DeleteI believe in freedom of expression, but freedom of expression does not mean that one can say whatever they want. Vulgar language, name calling, and any comments meant to demean a commentor will not be published. Discussions that goes around in circles are not effective in dialogues. However, I like your idea of using pseudonyms rather than anonymous. The use of pseudonyms could easily identify who wrote which comments.
Diana, I was attacked on your blog that I came from Jungle Watch and I agree with them in everything. It is not true. Just check the dates, please. I have never commented on Jungle Watch before I had that argument with you here. I have never demanded the resignation of Apuron for example whom I consider the Archbishop of Guam until further news from Vatican. I also think he should be respected as such.
DeleteOnly Vatican can change this situation with direct interference or the lack of it and until this happens we have to follow current church authority and leaders. I have no problem with that.
Saying this, I had to inform Tim Rohr that he was called a "plumber" on your blog multiple times. Tim claims he was able to uncover your because of your misconception about him being a plumber. There are only a few ladies on the whole island who could make such an assumption.
Please check the date when I contacted Jungle Watch. I only happened after I had received that treatment at your blog. You did not allow my best comment ever that I had spent hours to write. This was extremely unfriendly act, considering that as a consequence my best comment was completely lost by this censure. I don't even have the text of my own comment anymore. Do you think it was right, Diana?
Dear Jolene,
DeleteI already know that that was the first time you posted in the jungle. I am sorry that you feel that I was being unfair. But as Catholics, we do not interpret the Bible. Only Protestant Christians do that. It is very clear from the Catechism that I cited to you that individual interpretations are not allowed by the Church.
Furthermore, the jungle is not only demanding the resignation of the Archbishop. They also want to see the Way destroyed. Also, I did not know that Tim Rohr was a plumber. It was a commentor on my blog who first made that statement. I only know that Tim was in Real Estate until one of the commenters mentioned in my blog that he was also a plumber.
First of all, I am sorry, I submitted my comment as a reply for the wrong comment, meaning I wanted it 2 comments above this place... Anyway. I think we are over that exchange about interpretations already. I learned a lot from other comments in your topic, although I could not contribute to the discussion myself. But learning about Christ's words is always a joy for me.
DeleteI found that there is an impression that everyone who asks questions here is against the Archbishop. It is not true. I simply don't feel qualified to criticize the Archbishop directly, because evaluating his actions is a matter of high ranking Church officials, cardinals and nuncios etc, that I have no business to comment on. I mean, a priest or bishop is like the Church itself for me, I follow what they tell me and learn about everything Catholic from them. Until the Archbishop is in office, he is part of the Holy Church and that is more then sufficient for me.
It is quite different for the Neocatechumenal Way, which is not an official Church body, it is called an "itinerary" as I heard. So why can't I criticize what I see problematic? If you ask me why don't I join the neos, I have to be able to argue. This is what I am trying to do. I tell you what people find strange in the neo at the first sight. I can tell you this, because I visited the Barrigada 4th community a while ago and I had the first impression of many things myself.
Believe me, most people ask the same questions. For example, your standing and sitting during Eucharist is quite confusing. You never ever kneel during service, for example. People sense a lack of regard for the holiness of the Holy Host when you do this. You consume the bread while sitting but drink the wine while standing. Why? Why do you handle the bread and wine differently? It is actually both the same thing, both are the body and blood of Christ. Do you see how confusing it is for people who experience this at the first time?
You say the Jungle Watch wants the neo to be destroyed. How? I do not see any realistic way for that. I mean you guys are safe, you are not in danger of destruction in any sense at all. Those people at Tim are dreaming of false and ridiculous dreams. I completely disagree with them on this. I am absolutely ready to live with the neos in the same Church for a long, long time. It is not my way to the Lord, but I accept that it is for some. You still have to defend your manners to people if you want them to believe you, because I do not think you guys are better than us.
thank you for clarifying your points Jolene.....and your honesty.
Deletethe NCW is not for everyone simply because the call from God can only be heard from the heart and answered through the heart.
there are many coming to the catechesis with the intent of comparing their knowledge of scripture...of their faith....of their religion to the catechesis....and evaluating the people presenting the catechesis.
In truth, the catechesis team are just messengers presenting the Word of God....nothing else. They are not experts in theology and or priest....nor do they give homilies.
Proclaiming the Word of God does not require interpretations.....God provides the answers....it stands by itself...it does not need to be defended. The catechesis is not a question and answer session.
The open heart always receives the answer....not through our intellect.
Praying for you........thanks again
Thank you, I know the neo is not for everyone. Blessed Diego and St Pedro have never been neos. Now, they are praying and interceding for us in heaven. They knew the Word if God by heart, they did not need the catechesis of Kiko to become holy. This is true for all the holy men and women, for all the saints of the Catholic Church. But I accept that for some people the neocathecumenal thing works.
DeleteHow can you say catechist teams are messengers from God when they are messengers of the neo? You say they are presenting the Word of God when they are presenting the dictionary of Kiko lesson by lesson? Are you trying to replace the Word of God by the word of Kiko? I do not blame you to interpret the Bible the way you do as long as you are in line with the Magisterium.
I agree with Jack that you should keep our Sunday masses free of neo propaganda. We are Catholics, no worse than any of you. Why don't you leave us mainstream Catholics alone and go out to the Protestant churches on their Sunday services to make your proclamation to them? They are the ones who need to hear you and not us. Why don't you try to convert those Protestant sisters and brothers who are entangled in their human interpretations of the Bible and do not know the true meaning of the Word of God? Don't you think they would need you guys better than we do?
I just ask you, please, do not trash your own intellect. It was given to you by God. Being smart is a blessing, but being silly is a burden that can be overcome. I will also pray for you, so that you understand that Christ does not have a secret teaching proclaimed in dark and hidden church halls for the few select. Christ has a teaching available freely for everyone in the gospels that is to be proclaimed high voice from the hill tops in sacred spaces, like inside our beautiful church building on sunny Sunday mornings.
Jolene dear I take issue with ur veiled insults. First u say u just want to ask questions making people think u actually have questions and want to dialogue. Then u insult.
DeleteAnyone announcing the good news is a messenger of God. The Catechesis is the teaching of the church. And there is nothing dark or secret about it. I have a BA and an MA and consider myself pretty smart. Do not patronize me calling me "silly" bc I am in a community and choose to live the one faith in the way. Perhaps the problem that u have with the way is that u just don't understand the catechism and really don't understand church teaching. Thank goodness the popes don't have that problem and PUBLICLY support the way.
If you really had any idea about church history or the catechism you would understand that what you call propaganda is the announcement f the good news. These people give glory to God by telling others what he has done in their lives. Calling it propaganda is insulting the Holy Spirit. They are Transmitting the promise that God wants to act in the life of all people. And announcing the love of God for the sinners. And inviting people to listen to an announcemt of the the love of God is a service. If you had any idea of what it means to be catholic you would respond thanking God for allowing you to witnes his action in others and you would be reminded of his action I your life. nothing is more distasteful than someone who does not know lecturing people on what they should know. Go read a book.
Jolene post in Jungle Watch and use it to ridicule and mock whatever we say. Diana Jolene intentions is not to dialogue but discredit every person here that belong to a community.
DeleteWhat a wretched heart Jolene you'll answer to GOD with a big price.
Once again, please evangelize to non-Catholics. Not to those who already are. Besides, it is in your statutes isn't it?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 1:20 pm,
DeleteOur Statutes says that we can invite Catholics who want to deepen their faith. You do not have to come, but why are you denying other Catholics who want to join????
Anon at 8:41 AM, you are being unjust. I explained my standpoint which is the same of what Jack said. I clarified that after my comment was thrown out from here I published in Jungle Watch. That's it. Diana accepted what I said. Why do you say I want to ridicule and mock whatever you say? It is not true.
DeleteI am different from you and my views collide with yours. Collision is okay until it prompts honest and open discussion. You cannot see the stand points clearly if you do not try to collide them and see the sparks flying all around. I agree that one has to be civilized. This applies to everyone, not to one side only or the other. So please, try to tolerate my standpoint.
I said we do not agree with the radicals in Jungle Watch who try to depose the Archbishop. We don't want to get involved in such things. We respect church hierarchy. But we cannot be silent about the neos who come into our churches. We want to share our view even if opposing yours. I had visited the Barrigada 4th community a while ago. I wanted to see if it is true or not what you neos claim about Jesus. I gave account. We don't want to do those things I saw there. So please don't hate me because of that.
If I am attacked here and my integrity is questioned because I am not one of you, then I will just leave and Jack will do the same. Thanks.
We do evangelize non Catholics. B but we also listen to the popes who say that Catholics need to be re-evangelized. Most Catholics do not know what the Faith is or what the church teaches. And most Catholics do not live according to the teaching of the church. jesus first looked for the lost sheep of the house of israel then when to the pagans. People with a serious adult faith in the church are few and far between. i don't say that Ratzinger did and so did JP2.
DeleteDear Jolene,
DeleteAnonymous 8:41 am is correct. You come in here and called our music "strange noise." Then you call our testimony "propaganda." These are all disrespectful insults, and you expect us to be tolerant of you????? You say that you are being attacked???? How are you being attacked when you are the one throwing the insults?
Diana, I dont see any Neo's invite non-catholics anywhere on guam as actively as you all are 'inviting' our already Catholic parishioners in our Catholic Churches.
DeleteI hope you understand what i'm saying. Your statutes clearly says to evangelize non Catholics yet its not done..you know what I mean?
Its just so ironic. If Kiko was able to do this back in his starting days...then why are you guys not doing this now. We have so many christian sects that are clearly off track...and yet you are all in our Catholic Churches.
to anon 7:16pm.....no you do not evangelize to non catholics here on Guam...please show me how you are doing this..
DeleteI approached a pastor from a born again christian and asked her if she had ever heard of Neocathemunal Way....all she said was...'i just read them in the papers"
Dear Anonymous at 9:33 pm,
DeleteYou cannot even see the "Neos" who attend parish Mass and build up your parish; therefore, how can we expect you to see the non- Catholics we brought in the Way?
Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly Lord.
ReplyDeleteHe proceeds us.
DeleteI went to mass this morning and heard the Gospel that spoke of these sticklers to the Law, the Pharisees, criticizing Jesus because he healed a man with a withered hand on the Sabbath! Despite the miracle, the manifestation of God’s power and grace, these individuals could not bring themselves to praise God that a human being had been made well. The letter of the law overwhelmed them.
ReplyDeleteThis is happening here in Guam. Some vociferous voices do not yet see, and perhaps do not care, that people are cured of drugs, they do not care that marriages are being healed, they do not give a damn about children being born, they do not see the number of youth coming back to mass and confession through their participation in the Neocatechumenal Way. Their obsession is whether we stand or kneel and whether we let people know of the upcoming catechesis at the end or during the mass. How sad.
“Looking around at them with anger and grieved at their hardness of heart, he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out and his hand was restored. The Pharisees went out and immediately took counsel with the Herodians against him to put him to death.” And yes they are taking counsel of how to put us to death.
We are reliving the Gospel once again!
All of us baptised are trying to do the same. In our parish communities.
DeleteAnother pitch Ann. 12:07. Why does it have to be us vs them. Why can we both, and.
DeleteIt's not about the good that the NCW does...it's about the bad that their leaders do. You all need to learn to separate the two. You do not need KIKO or the NCW to continue your journey with God the way you do now. No one i saying that the those who left drugs or had their marriage saved are meaningless; we are against the elitist and abusive ways of the NCW Leadership. Plain and simple...don't twist my words or respond off topic Diana.
DeleteCan't be both and because Archbishop gave OUR Yona Seminary Property away to them. Neos labeled them because WE have been the Archdiocese all along.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:38 pm,
DeleteIf the NCW leadership is really that bad, there would have been a mass exodus of the members. Instead, you have members defending the Way.
AnonymousJanuary 23, 2015 at 1:46 AM A seminary that did not come from your pocket but your pennies went to Tim Rohr instead. How bout that for a spin off.
DeleteArchbishop did not give OUR Yona Seminary Property away to “them”. This is an Archdiocesan seminary. It still belongs to Archbishop and the Church in Guam. It is still ours. Please check the facts before you believe the lies of Tim Horror or the Concerned Catholics.
DeleteI do not live in Guam but have followed this discussion in Guam about the Neocatechumenal Way. In the beginning, it was the whole Neocatechumenal Way was wrong. Now it is the leaders who are wrong. Can you decide, please, who is wrong? My simple observation is : If the fruit is good, how can the tree be wrong? If the tree has been approved and lauded by the Church authorities, how can it be wrong?
Delete"If the fruit is good, how can the tree be wrong"
DeleteAre you not paying attention to the "bad fruit". That's why the visitors were recently here.
Dear Anonymous at 3:30 pm,
DeleteThey were here because someone has an agenda to remove the Archbishop.
Diana you are right. Guam wants him gone. AAA needs to go and the Vatican needed to see that Guam has two Catholic Churches. If AAA is the root of the problem- get rid of the problem. The visitors agreed and even told the Clergy that things will change. Ciao!
DeleteWait, Diana @ 3:36PM. Fr. Adrian told us the visitors were here for a happy occasion. They came to extend Papal blessings during the Jubilee Year.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:42 pm,
DeleteYes, the Vatican delegation told the clergy that things will change. Haven't you notice that Deacon Steve has been very quiet? He had until January 19th to decide whether he should join CCOG or not. Have you heard from him? Perhaps, the delegation reminded all the priests and deacons to respect and obey the bishop who ordained them?
How true is this comment of what the catechists say:
ReplyDelete"We are the angels of the Lord!", "Jesus Christ is coming with us!", "Seize this opportunity now because it may never come again!"
presumptuous i think. as if Jesus Christ would separate himself from the rest of us.
ReplyDeletethe question is not whether Jesus Christ would separate himself from us but whether it is us who separate ourselves from Jesus Christ.
Deletethis I believe what the intent of the previous commentor " Seize this opportunity now because it may never come again".
do you understand?
"we are angels of the lord" really, how so?
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 5:01 pm,
DeleteThe word "angel" means messenger. We are all called to be messengers proclaiming the Gospels to all people. In fact, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that the women were the first messengers who went to the Apostles and told them of the Good News.....Christ risen from the dead.
Anyone announcing the good news is an angel. Angels are messengers from God to the world. Being ridiculed bc of the announcement is a form of martyrdom. It is called white martyrdom. U sure u want to ridicule people who are giving witness of the love of God? I mean feel free. After all it is btw u and God.
DeleteIsaias GinsonJanuary 23, 2015 at 12:31 PM - you also don't belong to a community nor the Catholic Church. You select to apostatize yourself. Why bother??????
ReplyDeleteAngels are mystical beings created by G-d. People cannot be angels. People can be messengers, but not angels.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 7:48 am,
DeleteThat is a metaphor. Christ used metaphors a lot too. When He said that He is the vine.....does that mean Christ is actually a vine?