"Members of the Neocathecumenal Way practice their faith in a way that largely separates them from their parishes," White wrote in an email.
For example, they celebrate Mass away from the Church proper every Saturday night, instead of attending normal parish Masses, " White stated. "While they insist that these Masses are open to others, in practice, they are not. They are not even published in the parish bulletin."
This is where one can actually see where the real division is coming from. Chuck White says that we celebrate Mass away from the Church.....so why does that bother him??? Is he FORCING us to join the regular parish mass? What business is it of his if one attends the regular mass or not?? So, here lies the problem. This is not to say that the regular mass is terrible. After all, I attend BOTH the regular parish mass and the Eucharist in the NCW. I do not care if Chuck White attends the Latin Traditional Mass or the regular Parish Mass. That is his decision. So, why does it bother him if I decide to attend the Eucharist in the Way?? So, the problem is not me because it does not bother me if Chuck White attends the Traditional Latin Mass or the regular Parish Mass. The problem is in Chuck's heart because he is the one bothered by it.
Then Chuck White goes on to say that the Eucharist is not open to others. We know for a fact that this is false. There have been non-NCW brothers in our Eucharist. We ALWAYS introduce these people to the communities at the beginning of Mass. Furthermore, invitations have even been extended to Tim Rohr and Chuck White, which they declined.....so why the complaint? It is ironic that the ones who complained about the NCW Eucharist not being publicized in the Church bulletin are the ones who would not attend the NCW Eucharist.
Matthew 15:17-20 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
Then Chuck White goes on to say that the Eucharist is not open to others. We know for a fact that this is false. There have been non-NCW brothers in our Eucharist. We ALWAYS introduce these people to the communities at the beginning of Mass. Furthermore, invitations have even been extended to Tim Rohr and Chuck White, which they declined.....so why the complaint? It is ironic that the ones who complained about the NCW Eucharist not being publicized in the Church bulletin are the ones who would not attend the NCW Eucharist.
Matthew 15:17-20 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
from Pope Benedict via NCW Statutes....
ReplyDelete"...At the same time, the gradual growth in faith of the individual and of the small community should foster their insertion in the life of the large ecclesial community, whose usual place is in the liturgical celebration of the parish, in which and for which it is implemented (cf. Statute, art. 6). Nevertheless in this process it is also important not to be separate from the parish community, precisely in the celebration of the Eucharist which is the true place of the unity of all, where the Lord embraces us in the different states of our spiritual maturity and unites us in the one bread that makes us one body (cf. 1 Cor 10:16f.).
Like i always post, if you folks really want to stay separate just do the schism already, Kiko is certainly for it
Dear Destruction,
DeleteLike I always post, many members of the NCW build up their parish. In my community, there are some who attend daily mass (including the Sunday Parish Mass) in addition to the Eucharist in the Way. Others have gone beyond that by becoming lectors, Eucharistic ministers, alter servers, CCD instructors, and even parish council members. Others built up the parish by cleaning the church and maintaining the Church grounds.......but as always what I say falls on your deaf ears. This is how we have inserted our life into the large eccelesial community.
Diana, you have ignored the most crucial aspect of the pope's remarks, namely "precisely in the celebration of the Eucharist which is the true place of the unity of all".
DeleteIn other words, the separate worship should be a transitory element of the NCW and should lead (in reasonable time) to the shared worship in the parish. The retention of the separate Eucharistic worship in the NCW is one of the most problematic and disruptive factors. How long should it take for the small community to "foster their insertion in the life of the large ecclesial community, whose usual place is in the liturgical celebration of the parish"? Thirty years? Never?
This is not about whether some NCW members are on the parish council or clean the church, for goodness sake. There should be a priority by the leadership of the NCW to address the separation of the communities from the parish in the context of liturgical worship.
As we know, however, Kiko envisages the fading away of the parish, to be replaced by the small communities. And we know that you all believe Kiko is a Holy Saint, who is free from all possibility of error. So, those of us who are concerned about this, like the Pope Emeritus, will not be expecting any change.
Dear Anonymous at 1:37 p.m.,
DeleteYou were not listening to what I posted. I already said that many people in my communities build up their parish. A few of us already attend daily Mass (which include the Sunday parish Mass) in addition to the Eucharist. Others attend more than once a month because they have volunteered to become alter servers, lectors, Eucharistic ministers and sing in the Church choir. The rest are supposed to attend the Parish Mass once a month as stipulated in Arinze's letter.
The celebration in small communities continues on because new communities are being born. Kko did not envision a fading away of the parish, but a stronger parish for the reasons I listed above. Christ said that He would be with His Church until the end of the age when He returns.......and you think that Christ will not keep His promise????
We do not consider Kiko Arguello a "Holy Saint". The Catholic Church has an age old procedure of beatification and canonization. Until this procedure has not happened, nobody can be called a holy saint. We consider Kiko a founder of the Neocatechumenal Way. As a founder, he is responsible to provide spiritual guidance in accord with the gospels, the words of Jesus and the teaching of the Church. That is exactly what he is doing.
DeleteWe respect our founder because he created a framework of walking toward and being with our Lord. This is the faith life of small communities, the heart and soul of the Way. We do not consider him free from "all possibility of error". Receiving communion while sitting in the old times might have been an inaccuracy that was corrected by the Holy See, Pope Benedict. The Pope did what he was supposed to do and the Way obeyed to his instruction. Regarding doctrine, Kiko's book was amended by the Vatican Office of Teaching, including references to church documents and no actual error was found.
It is very well possible that the founder of a Catholic initiation, spiritual movement, congregation, etc. would be canonized in the future. We know about St. Francis and St. Dominic, or more recently, about St. Jose who founded Opus Dei and about St Teresa/ Mother Teresa who founded the Missionaries of Charity. If Kiko Arguello would be canonized in the future is anyone's guess. Would you say it is impossible?
"20 May the God of peace (...) 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever." (Hebrews 13)
"14 The teaching of the wise is a fountain of life,
turning a person from the snares of death.
15 Good judgment wins favor,
but the way of the unfaithful leads to their destruction.[a]
16 All who are prudent act with[b] knowledge,
but fools expose their folly.
17 A wicked messenger falls into trouble,
but a trustworthy envoy brings healing.
18 Whoever disregards discipline comes to poverty and shame,
but whoever heeds correction is honored."
(Proverbs 13)
Bernie
I'd like to know what parish those "volunteers" are at cause I can tell you that I know of NO ONE in the NCW that "volunteers" like you say. I find it VERY hard to believe. I deal with those individuals who are in charge at the parish level and make things happen-. Not at capuchin parishes, and not parishes of non- NCW priests? Not Yigo, Dededo, Hagatna, Mangilao, Yona, Talofofo, Inarajan, Umatac, Tamuning, Sinajana, Santa Rita, Agat, Piti, Mongmong, Andrew Kim, Campus Ministry, Toto, Maina etc. So where exactly? I have a lot of interaction with the parishes of Guam on various levels due to my position on liturgical planning, training, CCD, music ministry, and RCIA and I don't know a single soul that is an active NCW and a part of the parishes I go to or visit. In fact- the NCW withdrew from their life in the parish cause it got in the way and we talk about it openly in our meetings and gatherings. So without pin pointing names- just give me a parish so I can see it with my own eyes? Direct me in the right place- Certainly not the Aguon's, Terlajes, Leon Guerrero's, Borja's, Taitano's, Sheltons, Cruz's, Santo Tomas', Aflague's, Sablan's, Arceo's, Aglubat's, Camacho's, Lizama's, San Nicolas', Reyes', Dela Rosa's, Babauta's, Santos', Uncangco's, Perez's, Peredo's, Gogue's, Eusebio's, Aglubat's, Naputi's, Tajalle's, Untalan's, and many more. So who again?
DeleteDear Anonymous at 6:55 p.m.,
DeleteWhy not ask the Parishes that have the Neocatechumenal Way? Those parishes you mentioned with the exception of Tamuning does not have the Neocatechumenal Way.
So which parishes are they? Asan? Barrigada? Merizo? Hagatna has several communities but No One NOT one is a part of the parish so quit the lies. They sing for NCW funerals( for family) and read for them too and that is the extent of their "volunteering" for them- by them. Not as techas, not as Christian mothers, cursilio, divine mercy, life teen, catholic daughters, knights of Columbus, knights of st. Sylvester, knights and lady's of the sepulcher, legion of Mary, or CCD teachers. I know the DREs and parish presidents of those parishes and I will ask them and I am sure they'd respond with what I already know. Nope, no they don't. So who are they? Where are these brothers and sister people giving their time, talent and treasure? From fiesta planning to parish development they are NOT involved. It just us "regular" non chosen non special Catholics. Those NCW parishes are practically dead. Not by our hand but by poor pastoral leadership and inept NCW rookie pastors.
DeleteAnonymousJuly 31, 2014 at 6:55 PM why is it so important for you to gain accolades. How do you know if they do not serve their home parishes? This is another fruit of you passing judgement. they do serve their parishes but not yearning for recognition. This is absolutely not an act of Christianity. Your justification is not enough of evidence of act of service. Did you know that the Neocathecumenal way serve those Catholics who are in prison which also in community. The renovation of the Cathedral 1997 I was there to help and clean up and not wave my hands to Msgnr James, Hey I'm here I'm helping, is all service and act of LOVE. THIS is judgement WITH NO bearing. Basta Stop!
DeleteDear Anonymous at 8:25 p.m,
DeleteYou need to dig deeper and do a research on it. I already said that there are NCW members who are alter servers, lectors, Eucharistic ministers, CCD instructors, parish council members, and office workers for the Church. and sing for the Church choir. There are NCW members who do voluntary work cleaning and maintaining the Church and did it for free without any charge to the Church. Others have donated time and money in fixing things around the Church. Do you even know who is walking in the Way? Have you even gone to those Parishes that have the Neocatechumenal Way and asked the Responsibles there what contributions they have made to the Church?
AnonymousJuly 31, 2014 at 8:25 PM first of all if anyone of us do volunteer for CCD,RCIA etc. We don't tell the rector HEY I'm from Neocatechumenal Way! We simply inform our regular names. We are not encourage to say I'm from the WAY look at me. That is just very LOW speculation. Auggghhhh. Give up your belly aching, we are with you not against you.
DeleteHow bout Chuck White and Tim Rohr, I don't see them in procession or helping out in parishes either. Do we take note? No.
DeleteBernie at 6:04pm,
Delete"We do not consider him free from "all possibility of error". Receiving communion while sitting in the old times might have been an inaccuracy that was corrected by the Holy See, Pope Benedict. The Pope did what he was supposed to do and the Way obeyed to his instruction."
What are the "old times" precisely? The practice of the NCW right now is to sit to consume communion. This has not "been corrected", and this is one of the most obvious ways the NCW departs from the Catholic Church. This practice is done in obedience to Kiko, not to the Pope. And you know this of course - because this is why you brought it up when I mentioned how Kiko is idolised in the NCW.
I think the chances of Kiko being canonised are about the same as Martin Luther being declared a saint. So, if the NCW continue their infiltration and substitution of and in the Catholic Church, I wouldn't rule it out.
Yeah they have their own click, did we take notice. I was brush off by Fr.Mike Crisostomo did I cry to this island that he is a bad priest. No.
DeleteJoseph Cruz
Dear Anonymous at 9:14 p.m.,
DeleteIt has been corrected. We used to receive the Body of Christ sitting down. Now we receive the Body of Christ standing up, then we sit down and wait until everyone has received the Body of Christ. Afterwards, we consume the Body of Christ sitting down. This is how the Pope wanted us to do it since 2008. It was told to Kiko and Kiko told it to the Bishops. If this is the wrong way, the Vatican would have said something by now, and it is not as though they are not aware of it. They are fully aware of how we practice it. The NCW practices it the same way worldwide including in Rome.
"It was told to Kiko and Kiko told it to the Bishops"
DeleteWith respect, this is not how the Church operates. What right does Kiko have to tell the Bishops? Is Kiko the authority here? If, as you say, the pope told Kiko it was fine, where is the proof? All you have is hearsay, and the Church doesn't operate on hearsay.
On the other hand we have documents from the Vatican that state that the NCW should receive communion like the rest of the Catholic Church, and we have statements from the popes that the NCW should follow faithfully the liturgical books. I notice that you haven't run the "concelebrate" argument for a while Diana?
Denial is not a river in Egypt.
Dear Anonymous at 10:57 a.m.,
DeleteAccording to the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way, which was APPROVED by Rome, it stated:
It pertains to the International Responsible Team of the Way, as indicated in Title VI:
5th to maintain regular relations with the dicesan bishops;
6th to maintain regular relations with the Pontifical Council for the Laity, the dicastery to which the Holy Father has entrusted the responsibility of accompanying the Neocatechumenal Way as well with the other dicasteries of the Holy See within the scope of their respective competence, keeping the Pontifical Council of the Laity informed; (ARTICLE 3)
To put it in SIMPLE terms so you can understand it better.....the International Team is KIKO, (along with Carmen Hernandez and Father Mario). The APPROVED Statutes says that Kiko's responsibility is to maintain regular relations between the Diocesan bishops and the Vatican.....AND if you read the entire ARTICLE 3, it says that Kiko is supposed to make available to the diocesan bishops the spiritual goods described in Article 1 Section 3. The Approved Statues is found on the Internet.
And if you have a problem with Kiko acting as a middle man between the Vatican and the Diocesan Bishop, go see the Vatican who made that arrangement themselves. You can tell them that you know better than the Pope, and that the Pope should never allowed such a thing.
Furthermore, you misconstrue everything that was written down by the Pope such as seeing the word "reprimand" when it actually says "recommend". How much more Arinze's letter where he tells us to follow the liturgical books REGARDING how we receive the Eucharist, NOT how we kneel (because we never knelt). In addition, you do not have the ORAL instructions that were given to Kiko by the Vatican. So, when we were told that this change came from Kiko who in returned received it from the Vatican.....that was how it was supposed to be in accordance to our APPROVED Statutes.
It would be funny if it wasn't so serious Diana, but you are completely wrong.
DeleteYour Statutes do not circumvent the ordinary relationship between the Holy See and the Diocesan Bishops, nor do they provide any justification for Kiko to "tell" the Diocesan Bishop how the NCW will receive communion. "Regular relations" are exactly that. I'm not sure what you think that term means. But the Church ALWAYS puts in writing the instructions it gives to its members, so it is obvious that the Statutes are not intending to provide an alternative means for secret instructions to filter down to ordinary members of the Church.
Let me put it simply, so you can understand it better....The Church does not operate on "ORAL instructions", especially with regards to liturgical matters.
Now, I did not bring up "reprimand" or the issue of kneeling, but seeing that you did ("because we never knelt"), Diana, please tell me the rationale for believing it is better not to kneel, than it is to kneel. This is a simple questions - can you actually answer it?
Dear Anonymous at 12:58 p.m.,
DeleteFirst of all, have you forgotten that Kiko was confirmed as a Consultor for Pontifical Council for the Laity by Pope Francis for five more years. See the weblink below:
http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/neocatechumenal-way-initiator-named-consultor-for-pontifical-council-for-the-laity
Because his position is a consultor for the Pontifical Council, that means he can tell the Bishops what was decided at the Pontifical Council for the Laity. Regular relations means to be in contact with, communicate with, etc. It implies that there is constant discussion between the two as a husband and wife would be in a "relationship."
Secondly, you say that the Catholic Church ALWAYS puts in writing the instructions it gives to its members. This is false. The Apostles spread the Gospels ORALLY. Nothing was put in writing until many years later. The Catholic Church have always believed in Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Through our Tradition, not everything was put in writing. The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Immaculate Conception were all traditions carried on from the Early Christians, for example.
Finally, many Eastern Catholics (who are in communion with the Pope) do NOT kneel. They would find it an insult if you impose your culture of kneeling upon their culture. Their liturgy does not involve any kneeling. Even the Japanese Catholics (who also do not kneel in their worship) would find it insulting that you would impose your culture upon them.
Once again Diana, you deliberately miss the point.
DeleteKiko's appointment as a consultor is irrelevant. In any case, that appointment absolutely does not mean "he can tell the Bishops what was decided at the Pontifical Council for the Laity". It is the task of the Pontifical Council for the Laity to advise the Bishops what is decided. A consultor has no "official" decision making authority.
Two thousand years ago, there was the oral Gospel. Shortly after that period there was a written Gospel as well. Shortly again saw the inclusion of vast amounts of text and holy writings by the Fathers and the saints. And of course at each Council through the ages, there have been added to that the official teaching of the Church. The proclamation of the Gospel is indeed often an oral proclamation, but the written scriptures are the guarantee, and the written teachings of the Church are its guarantee to the faithful of fidelity to the scriptures. In matters of faith and morals (officially), particularly in regard to worship, there is always the written instruction. Always. You know that of course. you just give the regular NCW non-answer.
Finally, I didn't ask you if other Catholics knelt or not. I asked you "the rationale for believing it is better not to kneel, than it is to kneel.". You can't do it, can you? You really don't know? Go on I dare you to have a go at answering that.
Dear Anonymous at 4:33 pm,
DeleteThe fact that Pope Francis confirmed Kiko's position for another five years shows that it is important to his role in the evangelization of the Way. If it was irrelevant as you claimed then the Pope wasted his time. Yet, we know that what the Pope does is not a waste of time nor does he carry out some useless task.
Sorry Anonymous, but the Nuncio was here and the instruction he gave was that our problems are to be resolved by ourselves. The nuncio did not write a letter saying this. That was a verbal announcment. The gag order placed on Father Mike was also a verbal instruction coming from the Archbishop. So, whatever the Pope says to his Bishops in closed conference is also to be obeyed.
Furthermore, we live in the age of information. The Pope is not ignorant to our practices, which displayed all over the Internet. One has to live in the Stone Age not to know about our Eucharistic celebrations. Since 2008, there has been no reprimands from the Pope, telling us to cease consuming the Body of Christ sitting down. Instead, Pope Francis ceased all investigations on the Way and awarded Kiko five more years of being a consultor to the Pontifical Council. The NCW is extremely large in Italy. So you cannot tell me that the Pope does not know about our celebrations.
As for kneeling, I gave you a valid answer. You simply do not like my answer. I am a Catholic in communion with all Catholics including our eastern brothers. A Catholic who looks with disdain on other Catholics who does not kneel is ignorant of our Eastern brothers. I am not closed to only one type of liturgy in the Church. I am actually aware that the Catholic Church has many beautiful liturgies. I am certainly not a uniformist.
how can you insert into the parish when you rather be separated explain this impossible mitosis. look at the newspapers, how the movement has certainly inserted it with life From what i'm hearing is that "we're doing this much" so we don't really all have to do process the final instructions as Pope B. says.
ReplyDeleteBut we're talking about the Eucharist as per your complaint about Chuck White and as far as YOUR OWN statute says and Pope says, be UNITED with the Parish and especially the Eucharist
Dear Destruction,
DeleteIt was the Vatican who approved our Statutes, and the Statutes DOES say that we can celebrate the Eucharist in SMALL communities. What is the problem with me attending both the Eucharist in the Way and the Sunday Mass in the parish???
What you and Chuck White REALLY want is for us to get rid of the Eucharist in the Way and attend the Sunday parish Mass. In other words, you just want to destroy the NCW.
Patience...Time will tell.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 12:12 p.m.,
DeleteYou are being very vague.
Don't worry Diana, the time will come when everthing become perfectly clear. No more room to disagree.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 12:26 p.m.,
DeleteIt seems to me that you have a plan to destroy the NCW. It is a good thing that the Pope supports us. No one can say to get rid of the NCW when we have he support of the Pope.
I do not want to destroy the NCW; how can you determine that just based on my comment. My mother is passionate about her community and God, and I'm thankful to God for her strong faith. So why would I want to destroy that. All I'm saying is that the truth will come out. Anyone in the wrong will be expose; many already have. So please read my comments again, no where there did I say anything for or against the NCW.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 5:57 a.m.,
DeleteIf your comment was not so vague, then we would know specifically what you meant. But your comment when you say " time will come when everything become perfectly clear. No more room to disagree" is very vague. If you do not want the NCW to be destroyed, why not simply say so? Why make such a vague comment?
At the same time, how can you come to such a specific conclusion from such a vague comment. Your logic is flawed, but you won't admit it. You choose to start an arguement/debate with me in regards to a comment that was neither for or against the NCW.
DeleteYou can't simply know everyone"s sincerity specially in a blog. Reading paper today is difinitely a definition of Judas.
DeleteDear Anonymous at 11:56 a.m.,
DeleteIf one makes a very vague comment, it is natural that another can make a specific interpretation especially in light of some commenters here who would like to see the Way destroyed or removed. If you wish not to be misinterpreted, it helps if you make specific comments or say exactly what you mean by "there will be no more room to disagree."
On a side note, i find it disappointing that there was no concerted effort from the Guam NCW to come to the prayer service on Tuesday since you folks tout that you are part of the Cathoilic church and unity is important with the ecclesial community.
ReplyDeleteDear Destruction,
DeleteThere is a reason why I called you this name "Destruction" and why I told you to change your name. We know that unity was NEVER your goal.
So no concerted effort to show support for a unified diocese then.
DeleteDear Destruction,
DeleteYou heard, but did not understand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP_7UmiipNo
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 7:59 p.m.,
DeleteThis video is in Spanish. Where is the English translation?
The truth falls on deaf ears! It is you Diana and the NCW who closed your eyes and ears to to us. It was you who didn't want to listen!
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 8:43 p.m.,
DeleteIf you are going to make this kind of accusation, you need to be more specific. The NCW is not blind to those who want to FORCE us to attend the parish Mass by getting rid of our celebration of the Eucharist in small communities. Nevermind the fact that many of us already attend the parish Mass and even upgrade our parish church.
AnonymousJuly 31, 2014 at 8:43 PM your teaching is disobedience, if you feel to jump off DOS Amantes does not mean I'm going to jump with you. What your doing is totally an act of a PROTESTANT.
Delete