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Thursday, May 15, 2014
Disagreement, Disobedience, And Twisting Of Words
There is a difference between "disagree" and "disobey." According to Dictionary.com, "disagree is defined as 1) to fail to agree; differ and 2) to differ in opinion; dissent. "Disobey", on the other hand, is defined as "neglect or refusing to obey." It is okay to disagree with the Pope. Even Tim Rohr agreed with that in his post: Criticizing the Pope, in which two Italian intellectuals wrote an article entitled "We Do Not Like The Pope." According to Tim Rohr
This is an excellent example of how, when and why the laity can and should criticize the church hierarchy, and in this case, the pope; and a great example of how, when, and why the hierarchy can and should respond.
So, according to Junglewatch, it is okay to criticize the Pope. Yet, when it comes to the Archbishop and Kiko who DID NOT criticized the Pope, but politely expressed their disagreements......that was defined as "disobedience." In fact, that is the only perception they have concluded (see weblink here.).
Furthermore, on February 1st, Pope Francis gave the NCW three recommendations. But for some reason, Junglewatch published these recommendations as "rebukes." According to Tim Rohr in his post here:
4. And it was Francis, who on Feb. 1, 2014 gave the Neocatechumenal leadership its strongest ever public rebuke, telling them first to respect the cultures they go in to, and second to stop hounding people who want to leave the program......
Below is the Pope's letter to the Neocatechumenal leadership. According to Pope Frances, which can be found here:
And precisely in the name of the Church, our Mother....I would like to propose to you some simple recommendations.
The first is to have the utmost care to build and to preserve the communion within the particular Churches in which you will work.......
Another recommendation: wherever you may go, it would do you well to think that the Spirit of God always gets there ahead of us......Many of you will have to work hard to learn the local language, sometimes it will be difficult, and this effort is appreciated. Even more important will be your commitment to "learn" the culture you will encounter, knowing how to recognize the need of the Gospel, which is present wherever, but also that action that the Holy Spirit has accomplished in the life of every people.
Finally, I exhort you to care lovingly for each other, in a particular way for the weakest.....
According to Dictionary.com, "Rebuke" is defined as "expressing sharp, stern disapproval of; reprove; reprimand" whereas "Recommend" is defined as the following:
1) to present as worthy of confidence, acceptance, use, etc; commend; mention favorably;
2) to represent or urge as advisable r expedient: to recommend caution.
3) to advise, as an alternative; suggest as appropriate, beneficial, or the like.
(Definitions were taken from Dictionary.com.)
So, how does one jump from "recommend" to "rebuke" when the two words are not even synonymous? One can easily see how the Way is being unjustly targeted with hate. The word "rebuke" was used as propaganda to get others to think that the Pope was reprimanding the Way for wrongdoing when that was never the case. There is a lot of twisting words like these from the opposition.
Yes, twisting of words is a NCW speciality.
ReplyDeleteYou didn't quote the following from the Holy Father's address:
"..sometimes it can be better to renounce living in all the details that your itinerary demands, in order to ensure the unity among those who form one ecclesial community, of which you must always feel that you are part."
Why would this be said, if not because the pope believes that the NCW threatens the "unity among those who form one ecclesial community" due to its (fanatical) adherence to "all the details that your itinerary demands".
The pope obviously has concerns about the NCW monoculture (read: fanatical devotion to all things Kiko) when he mentions that The NCW should have a "commitment to "learn" the culture you will encounter". Otherwise, why would he say it.
Nor did you quote this: "The freedom of each person must not be forced, and even the eventual choice of someone who decides to seek, outside of the Way, other forms of Christian life that help him to grow in the response to the call of the Lord must be respected"
Again, is the Holy Father in the habit of bringing up irrelevant matters? Perhaps he is simply mistaken. Or, is it that he has concerns that the NCW does not respect the "freedom of each person"
Will Kiko accept these criticisms? Or will he "disagree" and continue as usual? I think we all know the answer to that.
The strongest proof that these statements of the pope were in fact reprimands, was seen in the silence and shock of the audience, and the lack of applause which usually accompanies anything "benign" that is uttered from the mouth of the Holy Father. The fact that Kiko spent most of his addresses at the Easter meetings trying to "twist the words" of the pope also goes to the fact that he knows what we know - the pope was rebuking these practises and attitudes.
Dear Anonymous,
DeleteYou have just proven my point. As I said, the Pope gave us three recommendations, and those who oppose the Way do not use those words, but rather use words such as reprimands or rebukes.....words that is not synonymous to "recommend." I highly recommend that you use a dictionary.
Dear Diana,
Deleteyou misunderstand Anon 1:18. he doesn't prove your point. he counters your point. In essence, why would there be a need for correction, for recommendations, for rebuke, for admonishments, by the Pope or any leader if everything is OK with the present system?
There's not a twisting but there's a subtlety because of course the Holy Father is being gentle and if you worked in any large environment the utterance of a whisper from the Chief sends tidal waves across the ranks.
you don't see this or you deflect this. it was not lost to the crowd they were being politely chastised by the Holy Father.
And yes, to disagree and disobey are two different things. but when one takes the subject of contention and carries it out, they are in effect "disobeying".
-Catholics United-
Dear Catholic United.,
DeleteThe problem here is that like Anon at 1:18, you lump the word "recommendation" as synonymous to "correction", "rebuke", and" admonish." I will once again provide the same weblink of the word "recommend". You will find that "correction," "rebuke", or "admonish" is in no way synonymous to the word "recommend." When the Pope gave the NCW his recommendations, he was essentially giving them his "advise" "counsel", or "suggestions." Here is the weblink below for the synonyms of "recommend."
http://thesaurus.com/browse/recommend?__utma=1.2124742770.1398602192.1400132643.1400156547.18&__utmb=1.5.9.1400156559034&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1400027290.15.14.utmcsr=google|utmccn=(organic)|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=(not%20provided)&__utmv=-&__utmk=228278557
You agree that the words "disagree" and "disobey" are two different things. I agree with you on this one. The problem here is that (as I pointed out), Kiko's letter to the Pope is being used to show "disobedience" when actually his letter was expressing disagreement. It has ALWAYS been Kiko's letter that they have been using to show proof of "disobedience".
Yet.......when two Italian intellectuals criticized the Pope in their editorial, that is labeled "disagreement." Therefore, this whole "Kiko letter" is only being used to propagate hatred for the Neocatechumenal Way.
Hmm, the Holy Father would not have had to give "recommendations" if everything were correct, would he? Lets call them "corrections" shall we, otherwise we will find, no doubt, that the NCW treats them as "suggestions" only, rather than actually addressing the issues.
ReplyDeleteOf course, one of the details that your itinerary demands, which I'm sure the Holy Father had in mind, is the lack of unity in the method and practices of the Eucharistic worship, including of course the sitting down and waiting bit, which the rest of the Church does not do. Lex credenda, lex orandi.
I'm sure, in an upcoming post, you will announce how the communities will be adjusting those practices so as to ensure unity in the ecclesial community?
Dear Anonymous at 3:33 p.m.,
DeleteAccording to the dictionary, synonymous words for "recommend" are the following depending on how the word is used. The word "correction" is not even close to it. The more correct usage for recommend would be "suggestions" rather than corrections. I provided the weblink for you so you can see all the words "recommend" is synonymous with:
compliment,
celebrate
prescribe
advocate
sanction
suggest
acclaim
praise,
justify
council
commend
applaud
compliment
http://thesaurus.com/browse/Recommend?__utma=1.2124742770.1398602192.1400119087.1400132643.17&__utmb=1.5.9.1400132665093&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1400027290.15.14.utmcsr=google|utmccn=(organic)|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=(not%20provided)&__utmv=-&__utmk=123841546
Well, part of the problem is that the word in question is "recommendation" not "recommend".
ReplyDeleteNow, I can post links to a thesaurus too: http://thesaurus.com/browse/recommendation
wherein you will find that synonyms for "recommendation" include:
approbation: ie approval or praise; and
injunction: ie an authoritative warning or order
This doesn't help much unless the context is considered. Given that the Holy Father was "recommending" changes in practise to occur within the NCW, I can't imagine that he was giving "praise or approval" for those practises. As I said, there would have been no "recommendations" if there were no matters to correct. So lets call them "corrections".
I assume that your acknowledgement of the term "suggestion" means you will just ignore the Pope's words anyway.
Dear Anonymous at 4:06 p.m.,
Delete"Recommendation" is the noun form of "recommend." When the Pope said that he is giving the NCW three recommendations, all one needed to do was look at the context of his letter, and one will then see that he was actually giving us his counsel, advice, or suggestion. The counsel, advice, or suggestion (recommendation) of the Pope is always welcome because it would help us..
The Pope's letter to the NCW was taken out of context and twisted for the purpose of inciting people to hate the Neocatechumenal Way. The same thing was done to Kiko's letter. It was labeled as "disobedience" while the two Italian writers who strongly criticized the Pope was labeled a "disagreement".
Be fair Diana and list everything. Other synonyms include SUGGEST , ADVISE, COUNSEL and much more!
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 6:04 p.m.
DeleteI was being fair. Why did you think I provided the weblink? If you had looked up the weblink, it provided more synonyms for the word "recommend". All you had to do was copy and paste the weblink. Surely, that is not a difficult task to do
Sounds like Tim is posing as a Anon. Long winded and obviously in left field.
ReplyDeleteWrong! I am not Tim, try again!
DeleteTim doesn't have to pose. Please. The man who defended and represented the Archbishop publicly on many public issues doesn't need the anonymous setting.
ReplyDelete-CU-
I found something very interesting. In Tim Rohr's JungleWatch blog there is an anonymous comment under the post
ReplyDeleteTHE ILLEGITIMATE REMOVAL OF FR. PAUL GOFIGAN - PART VII: THE EVIDENCE
"Anonymous May 13, 2014 at 5:44 PM What is more telling is the lack of specific evidence (...). They had been monitoring Fr. Paul for two years.....that is 24 months or 730 days!"
Someone was asking if this was true. Then TIM ROHR (!!) is answering the question:
"Tim May 14, 2014 at 9:09 AM I am so glad you asked. But the Archbishop won't be. Look for an upcoming post to answer your question." Wow, is Anonymous May 13, 2014 at 5:44 PM the same person as Tim??
The answer is certainly yes! As evidenced in the next post:
THE ILLEGITIMATE REMOVAL OF FR. PAUL GOFIGAN - PART VIII: THE BISHOP'S CASE
Tim is bragging here that someone "had some questions FOR ME (!!). As usual, I gladly answer: (...) I just love it when I get challenges." (Capitalization and emphasis is from me). In the comments section Anonymous May 14, 2014 at 1:22 PM says this:
"Tim, you did not answer the question. You claimed that the Archbishop "had been monitoring Fr. Paul for two years.....that is 24 months or 730 days!" How do you know?" Voila, Tim's answer: "Tim May 14, 2014 at 3:22 PM Thanks. You have just given me some very powerful things for my next post. Stay tuned."
He did not even notice that he is responding to a question that was NOT asked from him (!!), but was asked from Anonymous May 13, 2014 at 5:44 PM above. What is more, he is not denying that this question was asked from HIM. As he says he "had some questions FOR ME" (!!).
As a conclusion we a strong evidence came into light that Anonymous May 13, 2014 at 5:44 PM in the JungleWatch blog and Tim Rohr blog owner are almost certainly one and the exact same person! We will see him in panic erasing evidence on his own blog and fabricating false evidence at the same time, that seems to be his most characteristic feature of blog writing.
I hope all readers have a good understanding of the horrendous and long-reaching ramifications of this evidence about Tim Rohr's character, his role playing and his moral stance regarding his war against the Archbishop and the Neo-Catechumenal Way. Let discuss these characteristic features later.
Dear Zoltan,
DeleteThe purpose of my post is to show how words were twisted around. As I mentioned in my post, the words "disobey" and "disagree" are not the same. Yet, when it comes to Kiko's letter, his polite disagreements were labled "disobedience." But when two Italian intellectuals strongly criticize Pope Francis in an editorial, it was labed "disagreement." Their agenda is propogate hate.
They also twisted the Pope's address to the Neocatechemenal Way. The word "recommendation" is a positive word, but Tim used a strong negative word "rebuke" in place of "recommend."
Dear Diana, seemingly I may have deviated from the topic on the surface, but not in the essence. If we understand Tim Rohr's character, we also understand the people who are his loyal followers and hand-clappers at his blog. They deliberately misconstrue what you say and what Pope Francis says, so that they may fabricate false accusations about the Way. Thus, they show us the bottom of their heart which is full of hatred and prejudice.
DeleteYou are right that disagreement is normal in any loving family, but disobedience is something very serious. That is exactly the reason Tim and his ilks are trying the redefine Pope Francis' sentences, claiming that he rebuked the Way. It is absolutely untrue, because the Pope gave us recommendations that we 100% follow. I would like to emphasize: we follow all these recommendations 100%!
I find it very disconcerting that our fellow Catholic brothers and sisters under the influence of the JungleWatch blog would expose their sinful hatred and distort even the words of Pope Francis just to make false accusations against us over and over again. I sincerely pray for them that they my find the courage to go to confession and end this sinful behavior once and for all.
But it is no surprise that JungleWatch would lead them astray. Tim Rohr had designed his blog with the premeditated aim to trap the weak and feeble-minded, mostly from among his own cohorts, into the mortal sin of lying and making false accusations, so that he may report his "great success" and hand over the spoil to his own superior, who is and has been a liar from the beginning.
We are truely blessed to have a person like Tim provide us with documented facts that allow us to come to our own understanding. Jungle Watch is a fitting name for his blog. On the other hand, Diana, your blog is more like Playport at the Agana Shopping Center. I'd rather listen to my 10 year old's reasoning and logic. Honestly i visit your blog every now and then for sheyts and giggles. Joy!
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 7:05 p.m.,
DeleteI'm glad to make you laugh. However, I have to disagree with you. What facts are your referring to? It is so obvious that Tim cannot distinguish between "disobey" and "disagree." He also does not like the word "recommend" so he had to invent a more negative one to suit his hate agenda.
Furthermore, the fact that you come in here with nothing worthwhile to say except condescending words fits right along with Tim's "Hate" agenda. God bless. :-)
Dear Diana, can someone "disobey" a philosophical position held by another? To disobey is to ignore a lawful instruction or order by an authorised person. Can you show which instruction of the Pope the two "Italian intellectuals" disobeyed?
DeleteOn the other hand, if the authority of the Church through the pope orders the NCW to amend it's worship, and the NCW does not, that would clearly be disobedience
Dear Anonymous at 8:54 p.m.,
DeleteYou asked, can someone "disobey" a philosophical position held by another? The answer to your question is "NO." Why? Because in the first place a "Philosophical position" is one's concept, thought, opinion, viewpoint, or ideology. For example, I disagree with the philosophy of Karl Marx. I disagree with the philosophy of communism, the philosophy of Hinduism, and many others. Disagreeing with the philosophy of communism or even Hinduism has absolutely nothing to do with disobedience. As Tim Rohr stated, it's okay to disagree with the Pope.
People are entitiled to their opinions. Just because someone sees it different than you doesn't make them wrong. Some say rebuke and you say recommend so why slam someone for semantics? Are you an English professor? Did you write the Pope's speech to know his intent?
ReplyDeleteIt just goes to show that you are the very thing you accuse Tim of: "Hate". You hate that others opinions of the way are not like yours. You hate that others do not adore kiko. And what evidence do you bring to the table for your arguments on the Holy Eucharist: "my catechist told me so". And we should take your word over Tim's?
You and Zoltan and all the Old Men from every possible village and Gino live for Jungle Watch. It is obviously true from how you post here - responding to comments on JW. No original thought on your part just the same rehashed statements from your catechist Hey, if that floats your boat then fine, but don't be a hater to those that disagree with you. Embrace us Judases as we are necesary in your lives. Pas giya hagu!
Dear Anonymous at 10:56 p.m.,
DeleteYou say, "People are entitled to their opinions??" Was Tim Rohr expressing an opinion rather than "facts"??
Yes, it does make it wrong because in the first place, the Pope never even used the word "rebuke." Every "hate" site deliberately uses propaganda words in order to incite hatred. The Fundamentalist do it all the time. Of course, you would take Tim's words despite the fact that he's never been to the Way's Eucharist.
I tell the other side of the story. The side that shows hatred and prejudice as he uses Kiko's letter to the pope to show "disobedience" and then uses the Italian's criticism of the Pope as "disagreement." I show the part where the Pope said "recommendation" and Tim uses "rebuke" which is not even synonymous to "recommendation." How would you know the intent of the Pope? Can you see into his heart the way God can? I am not the hater, Anonymous. I'm not the one who changed the word "recommend" into "rebuke" to try and make the NCW look bad.
Tim uses documents and facts. You just have the "I told you so" argument. And dear Diana, I NEVER claimed to know the heart of the Pope. You took his message one way and others took it another. The Pope's chastisement was obviously totally lost on you. You can't see past the plain nose on your face!
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I take Tim's facts over all your opinionated ranting. Maybe I myself have attended the Way's Mass? Maybe I am in the Way. You don't know me to make such bold claims as "of course you would take Tim's words. .."
You judge Tim and others as haters for what? Having an informed opinion? That doesn't seem like a Christian attitude to have, but this is your blog so you can fire all your opinions away..
Pas!
Dear Anonymous at 9:07 a.m.,
DeleteYes, Tim uses documents. So, do the Fundamentalist Protestants and other hate groups. They also use documents, but they distort the facts in those documents the way Tim does. The Funadamentalist Protestants, for example, use the papal bull " Ineffabilis Deu"......a document written by Pope Pius XI in 1854. The so-called facts that these Fundamentalists twisted around was that the Immaculate Conception was invented in 1854 by the Catholic Church.
So, what facts are you referring to when it is very clear that Tim Rohr did not use a dictionary? Furthermore, on my next post, I will show exactly how Junglewatch use documents and twist the facts around to propogate hatred the way the Fundamentalists do.
Yeah Tim uses his own documents and juvenile rant like a quarter whore in Detroit. But how do we know is valid?
ReplyDeleteGuy from Mangilao.
Wow! How un-Christian of you to allow comments like that: "quarter whore" . Look everyone at the beautiful fruit of the way. This is your witness? Absolutely appalling.
ReplyDeleteAnd protestants are haters now? Sounds more like you are and that Mangilao guy are the haters around here.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous at 1:16 a.m.,
DeletePlease do not take words out of context. I never said that Protestants are haters. I have always referred to the Fundamentalist Protestants. Why did you remove the word "Fundamentalist" out of my words?
The Fundamentalist Protestants are like those of the Wesborro Baptist Church who believe that all Catholics, Jews, Muslims and everyone else (except them ) are going to Hell. They're the ones who say that Catholics are not Christians, but idol worshippers because they bow down to statues.