tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post857618294549038017..comments2024-03-20T11:41:40.379+10:00Comments on Neocatechumenal Way - An Insider's View: The Real Presence Of ChristDianahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-17774542028153060722016-03-18T15:45:57.362+10:002016-03-18T15:45:57.362+10:00Dear Diana,
CCC #1183 "The tabernacle is ...Dear Diana,<br /> <br />CCC #1183 "The tabernacle is to be situated "in churches in a most worthy place with the greatest honour." THE DIGNITY, PLACING AND SECURITY OF THE EUCHARISTIC TABERNACLE SHOULD FOSTER ADORATION BEFORE THE LORD REALLY PRESENT IN THE BLESSED SACRAMENT OF THE ALTAR."<br /><br />and<br /><br />CCC #1379 says "The tabernacle was first intended for the reservation of the Eucharist in a worthy place so that it could be brought to the sick and those absent, outside of Mass. As faith in the REAL PRESENCE OF CHRIST IN HIS EUCHARIST DEEPENED, THE CHURCH BECAME CONSCIOUS OF THE MEANING OF SILENT ADORATION OF THE LORD PRESENT UNDER THE EUCHARISTIC SPECIES. It is for this reason that the tabernacle should be located in an especially worthy place in the church, and SHOULD BE CONSTRUCTED IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT EMPHASIZES AND MANIFESTS THE TRUTH OF THE REAL PRESENCE OF CHRIST IN THE BLESSED SACRAMENT." <br /><br />Peace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-68401762954509419142016-03-17T13:31:59.292+10:002016-03-17T13:31:59.292+10:00Dear Anonymous at 1:00 pm,
Yes, you denied it. ...Dear Anonymous at 1:00 pm, <br /><br />Yes, you denied it. I stated that the sacramental presence of Christ is in the Liturgy of the word as it is proclaimed in Mass. And you said that what I stated was not true. Read your comment above. <br /><br />Furthermore, both the Catholic website and the USCCB website stated that the other forms of Christ's presence are also real despite that it is only His Soul and Divinity present. In other words, His presence is not fake nor a symbol. Read the USCCB website. The question was asked: is Christ present in the celebration of the Eucharist in OTHER ways in addition to his real presence in the Blessed Sacrament. The answer that the USCCB gave is a "yes." See my comment below dated March 16, 2016 at 8:52 pm. Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-5850671642843086182016-03-17T13:00:23.831+10:002016-03-17T13:00:23.831+10:00If you review what I had written previousl, you wi...If you review what I had written previousl, you will not find that I ever denied that Christ is truly present in the proclamation of the Word or in the priest or in the assembley of the faithful. I argued, rather, that the "real presence" pertains to the eucharist.<br /><br />I believe you know you are wrong, but you can't bring yourself to admit it - and that is where you fail.<br /><br />CCC1382 is the first paragraph in a new section of the Catechism titled "The Paschal Banquet", and while it numerically follows 1381, it deals more specifically with the Mass. <br /><br />1380 and 1381 are clearly speaking about the real presence in the Eucharist. You should admit this is true and recant your previous statements. Not to do so is not only dishonest, but will indicate your deception.<br /><br />Now, you say "I stated that the sacramental presence of Jesus is in the Litury of the word as it is proclaimed in the Mass. YOU stated this to be untrue."<br /><br />But that is again a decpetion. I did not ever deny the presence of Christ in the proclamation of the Word. You know this. But that doesn;t stop you from lying about it.<br /><br />What I said is that CCC1380 and CCC1381 deal with the "sacramental presence" of Jesus in the Eucharist (the Body and Blood). You cannot deny that any further, as it is absolutely clear to anyone who cares to look.<br /><br />You know you lie. You know you are twisting the Catechism. In that, you demonstrate that you don't care about the truth, but only to defend the NCW.<br /><br />The entire point of your post is to claim that the "real presence" pertains to forms other than the Eucharistic species. You quoted the catechism to make that point, even though you know as well as I that the catechism does not support that view.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-80827371672874307402016-03-17T10:18:15.793+10:002016-03-17T10:18:15.793+10:00Dear Anonymous at9:26 am,
CCC 1382 specifically ...Dear Anonymous at9:26 am, <br /><br />CCC 1382 specifically mentions the MASS. You only focus on the Eucharist. In the first place, I never denied that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist in the real sense. It is YOU who deny the sacramental presence of Christ in the Liturgy of the word proclaimed at Mass. His sacramental presence is real.....it is not symbolic. <br /><br />I stated that the sacramental presence of Jesus is in the Litury of the word as it is proclaimed in the Mass. YOU stated this to be untrue. The fact that you said it is untrue means that you do not believe that Christ is present in the Liturgy of the word proclaimed in Mass. Yet, according to the USCCB website, it stated: <br /><br />"According to the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy of the Second Vatican Council, Christ is present in his Word "since it is he himself who speaks when the holy scriptures are read in the Church." <br /><br />Furthermore, when you have resort to calling me a liar and a deceiver, you have already lost the debate. And as everyone can now see, YOU went against what was written in the USCCB website. Therefore, what you teach is not Catholic. <br />Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-56745957736746285392016-03-17T09:26:21.822+10:002016-03-17T09:26:21.822+10:00You are doing it again. When you brought up CCC 13...You are doing it again. When you brought up CCC 1380 you said this:<br /><br />"The sacramental presence of Jesus is in the Liturgy of the Word as it is proclaimed in the Mass"<br /><br />Now,you know that to be untrue, as CCC1380 deals with the unique presensce of Christ in the "Body and Blood" of the Eucharist.<br /><br />CCC1381 and CCC1382 only confirm this.<br /><br />It did matter that you didn;t completely quote CCC1380. You chose not to completely quote that parqagrah so you could argue that the "sacramental presence" that it referred to was the "liturgy of the Word".<br /><br />When you do this you are a liar and a deceiver. I hope you convert and put away these childish, selfish things. The NCW is endangering your soul.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-31169110224297402872016-03-17T07:39:30.623+10:002016-03-17T07:39:30.623+10:00Dear Anonymous at 1:57 am and 2:01 am,
The uniqu...Dear Anonymous at 1:57 am and 2:01 am, <br /><br />The unique way was the Mass because you will find Christ's sacrifice at the altar in the Mass where you receive Holy Communion so that you and God become one. You say that I did not complete CCC 1380? It did not matter because as I said, what Christ left behind was the Mass where you will find His sacramental presence. That is what it says so two CCCs after 1380. According to CCC 1382: <br /><br />CCC 1382 The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord's body and blood. But the celebration of the Eucharistic sacrifice is wholly directed toward the intimate union of the faithful with Christ through communion. To receive communion is to receive Christ himself who has offered himself for us.<br /><br />The Mass is the ONLY place where you will find Christ's sacrifice and the ONLY place where we can become one with Him. And the Mass includes both the Liturgy of the word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-75513697345733464212016-03-17T07:25:42.940+10:002016-03-17T07:25:42.940+10:00Dear Anonymous at 2:01 am,
So have I. Dear Anonymous at 2:01 am, <br /><br />So have I. Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-12487805776638322432016-03-17T02:01:53.370+10:002016-03-17T02:01:53.370+10:00"Have you ever attended a Mass where there is..."Have you ever attended a Mass where there is NO liturgy of the Word??????"<br /><br />No but I have adored the Real Presence of Christ in his Body and Blood outside of Mass. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-35360623304282108402016-03-17T02:01:04.950+10:002016-03-17T02:01:04.950+10:00Dear Diana, prior to my comment at 12.30, I had ma...Dear Diana, prior to my comment at 12.30, I had made another referring to the remainder of the CCC 1380 - the bit you didn't include in your quote. Why did you not post it? My comment at 12.30 follows on from that and only makes proper sense in relation to the previous comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-11596252567921907812016-03-17T01:57:38.321+10:002016-03-17T01:57:38.321+10:00"That unique way was the MASS, which included..."That unique way was the MASS, which included the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.<br /><br />No, quote the entire paragraph (1380) of the catechism Diana:<br /><br />"1380 It is highly fitting that Christ should have wanted to remain present to his Church in this unique way. Since Christ was about to take his departure from his own in his visible form, he wanted to give us his sacramental presence; since he was about to offer himself on the cross to save us, he wanted us to have the memorial of the love with which he loved us "to the end,"209 even to the giving of his life. In his Eucharistic presence he remains mysteriously in our midst as the one who loved us and gave himself up for us,210 and he remains under signs that express and communicate this love:<br /><br /> The Church and the world have a great need for Eucharistic worship. Jesus awaits us in this sacrament of love. Let us not refuse the time to go to meet him in adoration, in contemplation full of faith, and open to making amends for the serious offenses and crimes of the world. Let our adoration never cease.211 "<br /><br />There is no doubt at all that this paragraph is referring to the Eucharistic presence - not the Mass per se, but the presence of Christ in his "Body" and "Blood".<br /><br />You seek to deceive, deliberately and stubbornly. Why? How can you possibly justifyd oing this Diana? These are the moments that matter - it is time for you to reconsider.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-51365997191177543412016-03-17T00:35:29.588+10:002016-03-17T00:35:29.588+10:00Dear Anonymous at 12:30 am,
The Catechism starte...Dear Anonymous at 12:30 am, <br /><br />The Catechism started out with: "It is highly fitting that Christ should have wanted to remain present to his Church in this unique way." <br /><br />That unique way was the MASS, which included the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. As I kept saying, you cannot separate the Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist. They are one. Have you ever attended a Mass where there is NO liturgy of the Word??????<br /><br />Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-33931980115940791812016-03-17T00:30:43.592+10:002016-03-17T00:30:43.592+10:00Dear Anonymous at 12:27 am,
I will believe what ...Dear Anonymous at 12:27 am, <br /><br />I will believe what the USCCB says. You are not the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-87379329153489003262016-03-17T00:30:15.545+10:002016-03-17T00:30:15.545+10:00And, furthermore, just in case there was any doubt...And, furthermore, just in case there was any doubt what 1380 of the CCC meant when it referred to "sacramental presence", the very next paragraph (1381) says this:<br /><br />"1381 "That in <b>this sacrament are the true Body of Christ and his true Blood</b> is something that 'cannot be apprehended by the senses,' says St. Thomas, 'but only by faith, which relies on divine authority.' For this reason, in a commentary on Luke 22:19 ('This is my body which is given for you.'), St. Cyril says: 'Do not doubt whether this is true, but rather receive the words of the Savior in faith, for since he is the truth, he cannot lie.'"212"<br /><br />Do you feel even the least bit guilty for your misrepresentation, or are you operating strictly under orders?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-24345248647004248432016-03-17T00:27:41.864+10:002016-03-17T00:27:41.864+10:00"A Catholic believes that God's presence ..."A Catholic believes that God's presence in ALL sacraments are real, not symbolic."<br /><br />That may be true, yet the use of the term "real presence" is a step too far for a Catholic. "Real Presence" pertains to the Eucharist only - not to diminish the presence in the other ways (such as by implying they are purely symbolic) but to highlight the special place of the Eucharistis presence - a special presence that would cause a true Catholic to stop short of, say, claiming that the scriptures show the "sacramental presence" of Christ, and therefore should be placed in (or on) the tabernacle.<br /><br />Again, you have no shame.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-85552134314419971692016-03-16T23:59:19.845+10:002016-03-16T23:59:19.845+10:00Dear Anonymous at 11:27 pm,
Take a closer look a...Dear Anonymous at 11:27 pm, <br /><br />Take a closer look at the quote. The quote stated (capitalization is mine): <br /><br />"The Tabernacle shows the SACRAMENTAL PRESENCE OF JESUS in the Scriptures (Silver Bible) and the Eucharistic Species (Body of Christ). <br /><br />Did the quote say that the Holy Bible is a Sacrament??? No. It mentions the sacramental presence of Jesus. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Capitalization is mine): <br /><br />CCC 1380 It is highly fitting that Christ should have wanted to remain present to his Church in this unique way. Since Christ was about to take his departure from his own in his visible form, he wanted to give us his SACRMENTAL PRESENCE.......<br /><br />The sacramental presence of Jesus is in the Liturgy of the Word as it is proclaimed in the Mass. It is Christ Himself who proclaims the Gospel during Mass. His Sacramental presence is also in the gathered assembly as Head of the Church. Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-69161493663768312612016-03-16T23:46:05.868+10:002016-03-16T23:46:05.868+10:00Dear Anonymous at 11:24 pm,
The USCCB stated (ca...Dear Anonymous at 11:24 pm, <br /><br />The USCCB stated (capitalization is mine):<br /><br />"While the OTHER ways in which Christ is present in the celebration of the Eucharist are certainly NOT UNREAL.............This presence is called 'real' not to exclude the idea that the OTHERD are 'REAL' TOO,........<br /><br />A Catholic believes that God's presence in ALL sacraments are real, not symbolic.Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-33670119702862833962016-03-16T23:27:28.517+10:002016-03-16T23:27:28.517+10:00Dear Diana, once again, I will quote from the Rede...Dear Diana, once again, I will quote from the Redemptoris Mater Smeinary Perth site - "The Tabernacle shows the Sacramental presence of Jesus in the Scriptures (Silver Bible) and the Eucharistic Species (Body of Christ)."<br /><br />Now, if you are going to argue as per the Newadvent page, you must surely agree that the seminary is quite worng in what it says? <br /><br />I certainly can acknowledge a difference between the so-called "sacrament house" and the tabernacle. But your NCW seminary colleague obviously do not. <br /><br />Youare, in fact, arguing my point. Thankyou for that. But be careful - they might get cross with you for showing their error!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-20994072160462326192016-03-16T23:24:09.012+10:002016-03-16T23:24:09.012+10:00No, it doesn't say "pretty much the same ...No, it doesn't say "pretty much the same thing" as that article, Diana. The article says this:<br /><br />"Real Presence is NOT limited to the Eucharist. There are "four modes" of Real Presence: Christ is present not only in the Liturgy of the Eucharist but also in the Liturgy of the Word, the priest who celebrates, and in the people gathered together during the Mass."<br /><br />That is not the proper meaning of "real presence" as the priest that makes the sole comment points out. There is a distinction to be made in regard to the presence of Christ in those other forms, and his "real presence" in the Eucharist. You seek to blur that line to support a ducious practice of the NCW. Shame on you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-72798362674245718402016-03-16T20:52:12.348+10:002016-03-16T20:52:12.348+10:00Dear Anonymous at 2:05 pm,
So, you are saying th...Dear Anonymous at 2:05 pm, <br /><br />So, you are saying that the Catholic website is mistaken. What about the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops? Would you believe their website???? According to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishop: <br /><br />"Is Christ present during the celebration of the Eucharist in other ways in addition to his Real Presence in the Blessed Sacrament?<br /><br />Yes. Christ is present during the Eucharist in various ways. He is present in the person of the priest who offers the sacrifice of the Mass. According to the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy of the Second Vatican Council, Christ is present in his Word "since it is he himself who speaks when the holy scriptures are read in the Church." He is also present in the assembled people as they pray and sing, "for he has promised ‘where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them' (Mt 18:20)" ( Sacrosanctum Concilium, no. 7). Furthermore, he is likewise present in other sacraments; for example, "when anybody baptizes it is really Christ himself who baptizes" (ibid.). We speak of the presence of Christ under the appearances of bread and wine as "real" in order to emphasize the special nature of that presence. What appears to be bread and wine is in its very substance the Body and Blood of Christ. The entire Christ is present, God and man, body and blood, soul and divinity. While the other ways in which Christ is present in the celebration of the Eucharist are certainly not unreal, this way surpasses the others. "This presence is called ‘real' not to exclude the idea that the others are ‘real' too, but rather to indicate presence par excellence, because it is substantial and through it Christ becomes present whole and entire, God and man" ( Mysterium Fidei, no. 39)."<br /><br />http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/order-of-mass/liturgy-of-the-eucharist/the-real-presence-of-jesus-christ-in-the-sacrament-of-the-eucharist-basic-questions-and-answers.cfm<br /><br />According to the USCCB website, it says pretty much the same thing as that Catholic webiste, which you say is mistaken. The USCCB also listed the Church documents as their source. Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-36962540249891667412016-03-16T20:18:12.339+10:002016-03-16T20:18:12.339+10:00Dear Anonymous at 2:02 pm,
I believe it is YOU w...Dear Anonymous at 2:02 pm, <br /><br />I believe it is YOU who needs to be informed. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia: <br /><br />" In general, four main methods of preserving the Blessed Sacrament may be distinguished in medieval times:<br /><br />in a cabinet in the sacristy, a custom that is connected with early Christian usage;<br />in a cupboard in the wall of the choir or in a projection from one of the walls which was constructed like a tower, was called Sacrament-House, and sometimes reached up to the vaulting;<br />in a dove or pyx, surrounded by a cover or receptacle and generally surmounted by a small baldachino, which hung over the altar by a chain or cord;<br />lastly, upon the altar table, either in the pyx alone or in a receptacle similar to a tabernacle, or in a small cupboard arranged in the reredos or predella of the altar.<br />This last method is mentioned in the "Admonitio synodalis" of the ninth century by Regino of Prüm (d. 915), later by Durandus, and in the regulations issued by the Synods of Trier and Münster already mentioned. Reredoses containing cupboards to hold the Blessed Sacrament can be proved to have existed as early as the fourteenth century, as, for instance, the altar of St. Clara in the Cologne cathedral, although they were not numerous until the end of the medieval period. The high altar dating from 1424 in the Church of St. Martin at Landshut, Bavaria, is an example of the combination of reredos and Sacrament-House."<br /><br />http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14424a.htm<br /><br />Do you know the difference between a sacrament house that holds the tabernacle and the tabernacle itself? The tabernacle is in the sacrament house or a cabinet. The tabernacle is the small box containing only the Body of Christ. And above the tabernacle is the Holy Bible.<br /><br />or Perhaps, you are going to tell me that the Catholic Encyclopedia website is not Catholic? Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-78469578249390801392016-03-16T14:05:35.919+10:002016-03-16T14:05:35.919+10:00Well, it is certainly Catholic in name. But as the...Well, it is certainly Catholic in name. But as the sole comment on that article points out, the author is mistaken in his use of the term "real presence". You also choose to use that mistaken sense, in order to support a dubious practice of the NCW.<br /><br />AS I said, you can just about find anything you want to find on supposedly Catholic websites. <br /><br />Instead, how about you quote the catechism or some other official Church document to support your argument on these "real" presences? Can you do it, dear Diana?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-50699924171882243742016-03-16T14:02:35.656+10:002016-03-16T14:02:35.656+10:00Dear Diana,
you may need to inform your Australia...Dear Diana,<br /><br />you may need to inform your Australian NCW colleagues of your opinion. It seems they think differently. The caption to the photo reads:<br /><br />"The Tabernacle shows the Sacramental presence of Jesus in the Scriptures (Silver Bible) and the Eucharistic Species (Body of Christ)."<br /><br />Does this fit with your (arrogant and presumptuous) description? I think not. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-15555649798035113242016-03-16T13:46:56.388+10:002016-03-16T13:46:56.388+10:00Dear Anonymous at 10:27 am,
Are you saying that ...Dear Anonymous at 10:27 am, <br /><br />Are you saying that Catholic Online is NOT a Catholic website??????Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-33643631378816971822016-03-16T13:45:12.801+10:002016-03-16T13:45:12.801+10:00Dear Anonymous at 10:19 am,
The tabernacle is th...Dear Anonymous at 10:19 am, <br /><br />The tabernacle is the place where the Body of Christ is kept behind a lock, where only a key can open. The tabernacle is NEVER left open. The tabernacle is the box under the Bible. Surely, you did not think that the box beneath the Bible is the HOST or the Body of Christ??? Do you not know that the Host was never made of silver metal??? Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13613247477141929635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8205973525389434155.post-8112711909447309092016-03-16T10:27:14.505+10:002016-03-16T10:27:14.505+10:00You could just about find any opinion you wanted t...You could just about find any opinion you wanted to find on a "catholic" website. <br /><br />This is simply an example of how the NCW ruins people. Diana posts this link to this article supposedly to show that the "real presence" is not unique to the Eucharist, but that the "real presence" also applies to these other things.<br /><br />Why does hse do this?<br /><br />Because the RMS has a double decker tabernacle, and it would be unthinkable for her to admit that the RMS (NCW ) might be wrong. <br /><br />So, in the end, she pits herself against the Church. Diana does not quote from the CCC or any official teaching of the Church on this subject, but rather grasps at any straws that might support the position of the NCW.<br /><br />Is it any wonder that there is division? Is it any wonder that ral Catholics will object to the things Diana and the NCW argue?<br /><br />How can there be any resolution to these problems when you have people such as Diana who have no qualms about playing with words (eg "concelebration" , "I am glad that we agree that Christ's real presence is not limited to ONLY the Eucharist") looking for cheap support (this article for example), even to the point of outright lies - setting herself against the Church for the sake of defending the NCWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com